The Case For State Pheasant Stocking Programs

[Mike rossi]

Check our comprehensive report on this topic at this link:

http://nydovehunting.weebly.com/the-...-programs.html

[Mobuck]

Step 1: Pay bounties on all nest robbing varmints.
Step 2: Pay bounties on all raptors except Eagles.
Step 3:Pay bounties on coyotes, foxes, and feral cats.
Step 4: After 4 to 5 years of paying bounties, begin to think about re- introduction of pheasants.

[steveno]

all of the above except step 2

feral cats are probably the worst of the bunch.

[Gunplummer]

Pennsylvania has been beating that dead horse for years. The "Wildness" has been bred out of them. They are simply too stupid to survive, even with the reduction of predators. However, it for sure makes a difference. When I was a kid, almost every fox and quite a few coons I trapped had shotgun pellets in their butt when you skinned them. That was small game hunters taking pot shots at them. I remember the hayday of pheasant hunting. Those old longtail birds were smarter than turkeys. My buddy always bought a couple birds off a breeder for the kids to hunt. The breeder said the hens will not even sit on the nest anymore. He HAS to incubate them.

[David R]

New York gave up after a LONG time. Birds could not survie.
David

[TimSr]

I can't speak for NY, but Ohio stocks a lot of pheasants, but they are for the purpose of shooting, and not resestablishing a wild population. Simple honest truth is that you cannot put a domestically raised animal in the wild and expect it survive. I went to a pheasant "hunt" on public land after a state release. I shot one with a .25acp because I couldn't get it to fly. It was like "hunting" chickens.

Ground nests are at the bottom of the food chain. It's impossible to kill enough predators to have an impact, because nearly every species out there becomes a "predator" of a ground nest. Coon, skunk, possum, mice, even deer will raid them.

As far a a bounty on raptors, I'm sure that will go over well with the USFWS that has most, if not all of them totally protected. Crows and startlings are also a problem.

Ecosystems change over the years, and some species will not be well supported in it that once were, while other species will become newly established. It's been that way since the beginning of time. In many areas, I think hopes of the wild ringneck pheasant is a lost cause, and I don't think it can be fixed with hunting or game managment, or artificial habitat.

[buck460XVR]

Step 1: Pay bounties on all nest robbing varmints.
Step 2: Pay bounties on all raptors except Eagles.
Step 3:Pay bounties on coyotes, foxes, and feral cats.
Step 4: After 4 to 5 years of paying bounties, begin to think about re- introduction of pheasants.

After 4 or 5 years begin to think about professional rodent control, because the rats and mice will be eating everything in sight. You will never see a bounty on raptors as they are federally controlled. With the price being paid lately for fox and coyote hides, a bounty would not motivate any more hunters to hunt them. Most of the time around here 'yote/fox hunters are out every weekend anyway. Still many yotes/foxes are victims of opportunity by hunters in the field hunting something else.....like Pheasants. Bounties are just as ineffective as most Pheasant stocking programs.

The number one reason most state restocking programs fail to reintroduce pheasants is that their stocking program is not designed for reintroduction but as a give and take stocking program. They put out X amount of birds with the intention that 80% will get shot by hunters within a few days and the other 20% will succumb to predators and or just not knowing how to survive. What many folks don't realize, is this has been the standard in many states for as long as Pheasant have been around. Funny, many fish stocking programs are this way also and folks think nuttin' of it. The number two reason for failure is improper habitat. Proper habitat keeps predators from getting the birds, gives them cover and gives them food. Even with the new "wild" strains being promoted by many state wildlife agencies, without enough proper habitat, they too won't have a chance. Modern farming practices(which coincide with Pheasant habitat) are not conducive to Pheasants. Monies spent on Bounties would be better off being paid to farmers to promote habitat.

[Mobuck]

"After 4 or 5 years begin to think about professional rodent control, because the rats and mice will be eating everything in sight. You will never see a bounty on raptors as they are federally controlled. With the price being paid lately for fox and coyote hides, a bounty would not motivate any more hunters to hunt them."

Oddly enough in the heyday of north MO quail populations, EVERYONE shot foxes, hawks, owls, and trapped every sort of small varmints. I don't remember there being more rodents in the fields then vs. now when there's a hawk or owl on every light pole.
I've heard my fill of that BS about raptors only hunting rodents and I've seen plenty of hawks pursuing a quail or pheasant dinner. You think that blowing a hawk whistle makes pheasants hold better because they think some mouse is about to go down the hawk's gullet? USFWS made raptors off limits because some goody two shoes found out they could make it happen.
Re: coyote fur prices--we don't even bring them home because the Midwest fur isn't worth the time to skin or the gas to market.

"Modern farming practices(which coincide with Pheasant habitat) are not conducive to Pheasants. Monies spent on Bounties would be better off being paid to farmers to promote habitat."
That comment depends entirely on where you're talking about. Many places have ample nesting cover and adequate spilled grain for winter food. Unfortunately, those places also make excellent hunting areas for the above mentioned predators.

[johnwilliamson062]

When ODNR changed the license program over to a grant program, about 5 years ago, I had a biologist buddy who applied for a grant for an "automated" incubator that would release 5000 pheasant a year or something. Weekly tending required I believe. Additional funding for faux fence lines and other habitat improvements. He knew the likelihood of establishing a population was low, but put that in the grant in addition to providing seasonal birds to the area. It was the only grant they denied from him. When he inquired, they basically said 'show us where it has worked anywhere and we will get on board.' I don't think he ever found anything.

[Gunplummer]

The raptor thing: Just this week my local paper had an article about a shot bald eagle. That is the second one in a couple months in this area. Young bald eagles do not have white heads and look like hawks. Illegal to shoot hawks also, but I think the fine is less.
Pheasants disappeared almost overnight in PA. At the same time there was an outbreak of asian bird flu. Millions of chickens slaughtered to try and stop it. I would bet on that. Habitat loss? Hardly. With all the developments and horse farms scattered through out farmland in PA, there is no end to nesting areas.
PA has tried it all. Wild pheasants from out west, the smaller Korean bird that is more of a timber nesting pheasant, more habitat, and other weird ideas. It is simply a loss of revenue.

[buck460XVR]

Oddly enough in the heyday of north MO quail populations, EVERYONE shot foxes, hawks, owls, and trapped every sort of small varmints.

Oddly enough, around here folks still shoot foxes, yotes and trap small varmints. Research has shown that paying a bounty will not significantly increase the amount of folks that do tho.

I've heard my fill of that BS about raptors only hunting rodents and I've seen plenty of hawks pursuing a quail or pheasant dinner. You think that blowing a hawk whistle makes pheasants hold better because they think some mouse is about to go down the hawk's gullet? USFWS made raptors off limits because some goody two shoes found out they could make it happen.

Go back and read my post, maybe more slowly this time. I never said Raptors don't hunt pheasants.....just that they were Federally protected and the chances of getting a bounty put on them is nil. I've heard my fill of BS from internet posters that think they know more about wildlife management than those that do it for a living. Raptors, while taking a few adult game birds,take many more nuisance animals. Folks also like to see them around. Wildlife managers manage wildlife for more than just hunters and manage more species than just pheasants. They know what they are doing. They, and not posters on the internet is why we have any wildlife at all to hunt and view.

Re: coyote fur prices--we don't even bring them home because the Midwest fur isn't worth the time to skin or the gas to market.

I too live in the midwest and the buyer around me was paying 8-10 bucks for any and all the yotes he could get....and he preferred them still on the carcass. This was yotes not shot up with a deer rifle during gun deer season, but trapped yotes and those shot with varmint rifles. While there was a great demand for yote pelts this year, seemed no-one wanted raccoon. Coincidentally, coons probably do more damage to nesting pheasants than raptors or yotes.

That comment depends entirely on where you're talking about. Many places have ample nesting cover and adequate spilled grain for winter food. Unfortunately, those places also make excellent hunting areas for the above mentioned predators

Back in the heyday of quail and Pheasant populations around here, every farmer had land in what they then called "soil bank". Now we call it conservation reserve. Parcels that were left to grow without being cut and left alone all year around. Not only was there cover for nesting, but cover from winter snows and predators. Don't hardly know of anyone with "set aside" anymore. Pheasants need to eat year around, and spilled grain does not last year around. Modern farming practices have eliminated the bugs small pheasant chicks need to grow. The spraying of weeds prevents the small early season weed seeds that feed small chicks and adult birds early in the season before the ag crops are edible. Used to be first cut hay around here was a week or so after Memorial day. Nowadays it can be as early as mid May. Less time for chicks to hatch and leave the nest to run from the haybines. Used to be when we cut hay with a sickle bar we went around nests we found. Nowadays you never see the nest from the cab of the haybine, just the puff of feathers next time around.

The reason Pheasants do not survive everywhere is complicated and not an easy issue to fix. Again, many F&Ws/DNRs realize this, but still stock pheasants on lands accessible to the public for the sole purpose of them being hunted/shot. While it is expensive, they consider the opportunity to hunters and the resulting income from them, not only in licenses and stamps, but to the local economy. The added cost of bounties will not greatly increase the survival rate of stocked pheasants and just cost more monies those departments don't have. Even out in South Dakota where Pheasants are stable and have large native populations, and land is managed solely for Pheasant habitat, their DNR regularly stocks birds on heavily hunted lands just for the hunters to shoot.

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, buck.

[kilimanjaro]

Around Wichita, the bird populations dropped considerably where the windbreaks were cut down along the fencerows and farmers started plowing right to the property line. That includes pheasants and songbirds.

[Mobuck]

"Don't hardly know of anyone with "set aside" anymore."
You haven't heard of CRP? Hundreds of thousands of acres of warm season grasses, nesting cover, weeds, and all sorts of game friendly habitat.

"the buyer around me was paying 8-10 bucks for any and all the yotes he could get"
Like I said, that won't pay the gas bill to drive to the fur house.

"Oddly enough, around here folks still shoot foxes, yotes and trap small varmints. Research has shown that paying a bounty will not significantly increase the amount of folks that do tho."
Originally, you argued that removing varmints and raptors would cause a massive surge in the rodent population. Research is often simply a manipulation of facts with the intent to prove whatever hypothesis the researcher favors.

Every time we turn around, a "book learned" expert tells a different story or gives the old story a different twist (mostly to benefit his own idea). Over the decades I've been farming and hunting, I've seen plenty of regulations foisted upon the landowners and public by "game managers". Some worked OK and some didn't.

[TimSr]

Since it is impossible to isolate any variable or even group of variables when it comes to wildlife management, it will always be a science of speculation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and take a guess that most of the species we consider "native" were at one time an invasive species. The earth's ecosystems are ever evolving and ever changing, with or without the activities of man.

[buck460XVR]

You haven't heard of CRP? Hundreds of thousands of acres of warm season grasses, nesting cover, weeds, and all sorts of game friendly habitat.

Yes, I have heard of it, even mentioned it before you in my previous post.....

every farmer had land in what they then called "soil bank". Now we call it conservation reserve.

The intials CRP stands for conservation reserve program.

While there still is a program to pay farmers to "set aside" land, there is considerably less of it being set aside around here for numerous reasons. Less money available means less land in the program. Less money paid per acre means the farmer is better off to farm it. Difficulty in getting land in or keeping it in means farmers don't bother. Add to the fact that not all natural grasses are conducive to Pheasant Habitat. CRP worked fabulously for pheasants in the Dakotas. While it helped in many areas of Eastern Washington, CRP also resulted in vast monocultures of crested wheat grass that became wastelands for pheasants. Used to be ditches and fencelines were left to grow. Now the county mows the ditches and the farmers spray the fencelines. Used to be farmers had windbreaks along fields to help fight erosion....now they are gone and turned into fields themselves because of new tillage practices.

Like I said, that won't pay the gas bill to drive to the fur house.

........and the $5-$10 bounty is? Again, it has been proven over and over that bounties do not greatly increase the numbers of animals killed or hunted. It only costs the state to pay for animals that would have been shot anyway.

Originally, you argued that removing varmints and raptors would cause a massive surge in the rodent population.

The elimination of every varmint and raptor would lead to massive surges of rodents. Look at areas like Australia and some isolated islands that had no native predators after mice rats were accidentally introduced. While I agree that reducing predator populations will help increase some game numbers, like anything else in nature, there must be a balance. This is why we have seasons on fox and bobcat around here. This is why raptors are under Federal protection. Man does very well at screwing up Ma Nature's balance, especially when it comes to hunting. We want ten Pheasants behind every cornstalk and five deer behind every tree without considering what those populations do to the habitat and what they need for habitat.

Over the decades I've been farming and hunting, I've seen plenty of regulations foisted upon the landowners and public by "game managers". Some worked OK and some didn't.

It's called learning from experience. It's also called changing the regs as the public and Ma Nature demand. For every Pheasant hunter that wants to limit out everytime he goes out hunting, there is another person that gets the same thrill from watching a pair of Red-Tails hunting or hearing a Horned Owl hoot at sunset. Like it or not, wildlife managers nowadays manage for both.

It comes down to Pheasants will not survive in the wild without the proper habitat.....period. This is one of those lessons learned. Monies spent on raising birds should also go to provide and pay landowners for habitat. Read the Mission statement of Pheasants Forever...

Our Mission

Pheasants Forever is dedicated to the conservation of pheasants, quail and other wildlife through habitat improvements, public awareness, education and land management policies and programs.


Many states will still stock pheasants on a give and take basis, just because the public and hunters demand it. Again, even with proper habitat, stocking needs to be done to supplement native animals when and where pressure demands. Just like the stocking of trout/walleyes in the best of habitat. These things are all viable and possible and have broad public support. Unlike the implementation of bounties on Raptors.

[T. O'Heir]

Pheasants are an unnatural species in North America. Introduced to the U.S. from Asia in the 1880s. Wiley, raptors, raccoons and opossums, et al are natural. Removing the predators causes all kinds of bad things to happen.
However, the most likely culprit for fewer birds is removing the nesting habitat and the explosion of Wiley's population.

[Gunplummer]

No. There were no coyotes in my area when pheasants disappeared. The birds disappeared in about two years. Habit my butt. There are plenty of overgrown areas spaced between the farms and housing developments. Throw in the horse farms too. NONE of it allows for hunting. My neighbors used to let their guina hens run wild. Some how the predators did not clean them out. Maybe we should stock them. It is just stupid to waste license money on a lost cause. There is every other kind of extra stamp attached to the PA hunting license. Time for a pheasant stamp. Why should I have to pay more so a few can indulge in Pheasant hunting because they can not hit a grouse?

[johnwilliamson062]

You don't need just overgrown areas. You need overgrown with the right fauna, brush, and fenceline. Habitat is an issue. They do seem to be making a slow come back in Ohio. I've even seen one in the wild far from a stocked hunting area.

[Mobuck]

The highest populations of quail and pheasants I've seen in north central MO occurred in the early to mid 80's when every acre that didn't stand on edge was farmed. The cropland was reduced by CRP participation in the late 80's and the quail, pheasant, and turkey populations dropped accordingly. If all the environmental and farming practices are hurting the game bird populations, why don't the thousands of acres of Conservation Commission land have birds? Managed 100% for wild game(especially quail/pheasants) with a nearly unlimited budget and still no birds.
If I was failing at my job, I'd learn to be good at blaming Mother Nature, too.

The reference to "conservation reserve" fell short of be interpreted as CRP.
The long gone "set aside" very often amounted to leaving acres grow up in weeds-often the poorest land since no one wanted to fallow their best ground. Modern farmers don't really like to re-establish a weed seed factory on any ground so even CRP may get sprayed to knock down undesirable plants. Not all CRP cover has wildlife habitat as it's priority.

[Gunplummer]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. The first thing to take over little patches of unattended areas are the weed/seed plants. I live in a mountainous area now, but the last place I lived was bird heaven (Without the birds). The farm fields went right up to people's back yards. Most developments and houses had patches of woods and scrub areas attached.
Wild pheasants? Maybe, but I doubt it. I hear that from hunters that are to young to know the difference. I always ask how many hens they see. The answer is always "None".

[Mobuck]

At present, the only spot in my area that has pheasants is on heavily row cropped land which is broken up by CRP fields. The farmers don't pay any attention to "nesting" periods in regard to haying and the crop land gets sprayed just the same as anywhere else.
We often see one or maybe 10 pheasants in a one mile stretch of highway year round. The major landowner asked us to trap his farm in 2014 and we took out 50+ coons and unknown number of possums and skunks (didn't trap this winter because it wasn't worthwhile $$ wise)so nest predation should have been reduced. In the last 15 months we've killed 8-10 coyotes and a couple of foxes on his place so that factor has also been reduced.
Pheasants CAN survive naturally but they can't live on grass and weed seed nor can they survive high predation.

[buck460XVR]

Pheasants CAN survive naturally but they can't live on grass and weed seed nor can they survive high predation.

I never said Pheasants can survive in large numbers when numbers of Predators is high Mobuck, only that you will never see a bounty on Raptors, that bounties do little to increase the amount of animals killed and that the elimination of all Raptors and other predators that feed heavily on rodents, would lead to an explosion in the numbers of nuisance rodents. I shoot every coyotes I see, same goes for raccoon and foxes when they are in season. I call for yotes and fox and probably will this Sunday before I cut wood. Fox season ends this Sunday.

But I did say that pheasant survival is more complicated than most folks think. I used to have a Game Farm license and raised pheasants and quail for many years, both to release on my property and to train my bird dogs with. I know a little bit about them both and what it takes for them to survive. Grass and weed seeds are important for both. You do know that corn is a grass, right? As are wheat, barley, millet, oats, sorghum, and rye. All good food sources for Pheasants and Quail. But they are not readily available year round. This is another thing most folks don't fathom. The only time they are in Pheasant habitat is during hunting season when those crops have matured and there is food all over.

If all the environmental and farming practices are hurting the game bird populations, why don't the thousands of acres of Conservation Commission land have birds? Managed 100% for wild game(especially quail/pheasants) with a nearly unlimited budget and still no birds.

Because not all CRP land is managed expressly for Pheasants. Because not all native grasses and plants(promoted by CRP programs) are conducive to game birds. You've said so yourself.

At present, the only spot in my area that has pheasants is on heavily row cropped land which is broken up by CRP fields.

It sounds as if that area has good habitat which is a balance of ag land and undisturbed and is also large enough to establish a population. Again, it takes habitat, along with the control of predators......balance. Still, since Pheasants are not native, they once had to be stocked there or someplace near-by. Here in Wisconsin we have many farms that look exactly the same from the road. Some have birds, some don't The biggest difference between the two is hunting pressure and whether or not birds had been released there. Many times it's the farmers kids in FFA that raised the birds and put them out. Around here for private land to get state birds, the landowner must open their land to public hunting. Most landowners are not willing to do this so most birds are released on public land with marginal habitat and heavy pressure. For years I have been going to our Spring Conservation Congress hearings and trying to get the state to put some of the effort and monies they use on Pheasant stocking to stock quail. Quail are native to the state and once were in good numbers here. Have gotten little response as the majority of the monies comes from the sale of Pheasant stamps and not from general license fees. They feel that most folks don't want another stamp(we already have waterfowl, turkey and pheasant along with trout and Great Lakes) and are hoping that private organizations and individual landowners will do it for them. So far it isn't working.

I'm a big Musky fisherman. I'd love for every body of water in the state to hold Muskies so I could go anywhere to fish them. Problem is, like Pheasants, they don;t survive everywhere and need the correct food chain and habitat. While they get stocked in many waters, they only are native in a few and need to be restocked continuously to maintain fishable numbers. Similar to Pheasants.

If I was failing at my job, I'd learn to be good at blaming Mother Nature, too.

Mother nature has little to do with it. Pheasants are not native here and were brought here by man so they could be hunted. They and similar land game birds were not here previously because our habitat did not promote such animals. Man had to make the habitat, plus stock the birds. We now produce marginal habitat and stock it with birds than have a marginal chance of surviving. Wildlife managers have very little control over habitat on private lands and very little monies to control habitat on public land. You want to blame someone, blame private land owners that don't care enough about Pheasants or have other priorities and those folks that want to hunt public lands for free.

[steveno]

another thing to consider is that whether the pheasant is stocked or wild but is what the winter and spring weather is like. a bad winter around here in Nebraska will kill off guail for sure and a lot of pheasants. a real wet spring won't do them any good either. I haven't seen any quail in quite a few years. Nebraska used to be noted for pheasant hunting but now for however many reasons you want to use there are more turkeys than pheasants.

[Gunplummer]

The problem is we are arguing about where we live. Some states have wild pheasants, some do not. PA does not. We have the habitat, just no breeding birds. Back in the "Good old days", there were more pheasants killed on the road than the predators could do now.