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Old September 22, 2018, 09:57 AM   #1
siloshooter
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remington shotguns

been a lot of talk about remington guns losing their quality the last few years . i have no way personally to verify this or dispel it either . have not purchased a remington arm since i got my 870 express home protection gun in 2008 ... 10 years ago. it was manufactured in 2007, or 2008 i do believe.
was this gun made before the so called " down hill slide " of remington ?
it works great , great super smooth pump action & a really neat parkerized finish ...... just curious .
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Old September 22, 2018, 12:48 PM   #2
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Ever since Remington became a holding company asset and not operated by "gun people", but by MBA's(like every other firearms company), the QC department has suffered.
The MBA's did things like make the 'Wingmaster' a high end brand. My 870, purchased in the early 80's, is a Wingmaster, but it's not the flashy shotgun they are now. It has a plain walnut stock and started with a non-ribbed, 30", full choked, duck barrel. Cost me less than $300Cdn. That was before there was such a thing as an Express or SPS.
Isn't just that though. There's government interference, unions, huge increases in the cost of natural materials(wood prices, for example, have sky rocketed.), etc, etc. Everything is about making a profit and just staying in business now.
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Old September 22, 2018, 02:35 PM   #3
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I have not seen the much ballyhooed Remington quality slide talked about on the internet. They did have a few Expresses with rough chambers that were smeared all over the internet, but that was ages ago now. You cannot buy a $220 Express and get a Wingmaster - and that appears to anger a lot of folks for some reason, but that is a grade issue, not quality, to me.
I am talking shotguns, NOT handguns.
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Old September 22, 2018, 06:22 PM   #4
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Just picked up a new 20ga Wingmaster last week---so I guess I still trust Remington shotguns--bankruptcy and all. Still won't touch a model 700 though.


There's something about 870's that just fit me right---Mossberg's feel thicker and more clunky--if that makes sense?? Do have a Maverick Security model--so not anti Mossberg at all.

Grew up with a 12ga Wingmaster---so my new 20ga feels like an old friend---much slicker and smoother than any Express--------just as pretty as the old one with the exception of the top of the vent rib that looks and feels like a cheese grater but that's my only complaint ---the rest of the gun is top notch---but you're gonna pay for it too with the price more than double what a new Express from Walmart will cost you.
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Old September 22, 2018, 06:31 PM   #5
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I don't own any new rem. shotguns. I have seen a few "new" 1100 and 11-87's at the range(skeet, trap, sporting) and they seem to work alright. I do have a fairly new 1187 Trap gun that works as advertised. I did see some 700 rifles some years ago that weren't up to snuff, my sons have 870 express guns from 10 or 12 years ago with sticky chambers. From what I'm seeing in general a lot of the gun makers have quality problems. I've had problems with guns from Browning, S&W, Ruger, Kimber, Citadel, Taurus, so it's not just Remington.
Sad..............................................................
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Old September 23, 2018, 07:46 PM   #6
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In the last year I have purchased two Expresses that I eventually sold because I wanted something nicer and a new V3 Walnut and a Wingmaster Claro that Remington bought back from me because they had function, finish, QC issues. I would definitely say it is hit and miss with Remington. Their customer service is deplorable at all levels and this is my first hand personal experience with in the past 12 months.
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Old September 23, 2018, 11:14 PM   #7
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Not sure. My sample size is two Remington shotguns, both manufactured in the last 4 years or so.

One is an 1100 Tactical that has digested hundreds of low brass and high brass shells of every conceivable type with a total of 0 malfunctions and has zero perceivable flaws from the factory. I trust it with my life.

The other is an 870 Police model that I’ve had an identical experience with, except its fired even more rounds and is fully tricked out for bedside use where it sits each night.

So... in MY experience, newer Remington shotguns are superb. Others seem to have not been so lucky but again, I only have my two guns to draw experience from, but they’re both damn good guns.
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Old September 24, 2018, 01:00 AM   #8
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I've got a 870 I bought in 66 and 1100 in 70s. I don't know why I still have them
never did like them much. Today I wouldn't buy anything Remington makes shotgun or rifle and their pistols. A good one gets out by accident every now and
then. Remington has really screwed up the Marlin line. They are going to end up
going under from mismanagement. They were market leader after Win went under in 63. They had 870, 1100, 700, 788 and several others that were good sellers and let quality control go to nothing. It's going to take a lot for them to
turn around.
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Old September 24, 2018, 03:00 PM   #9
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I haven't bought any new Remington shotguns because the old one keeps doing it's thing. A model 17 Remington 20 gauge pump , my grandfather bought it in 1929 and hunted quail with it, after my daddy used it for several years he gave it to me.
I shoot left handed so the bottom load/ejecting is perfect for me.
It still works just fine......maybe you should just buy an older one....who say's new is better.
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Old September 25, 2018, 08:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
I haven't bought any new Remington shotguns because the old one keeps doing it's thing.
This. I have an 11-87 Premiere Light Contour purchased in 1993 that is still my go-to dove gun. I've found nothing that does the job better.

That said, my brother purchased a Cerberus-era 870 that is a far cry in quality from older guns - it required a trip back to Remington to properly size the chamber to eject shells. It's pretty sad when a company can't build a reliable pump-action shotgun.
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Old September 25, 2018, 12:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
t required a trip back to Remington to properly size the chamber to eject shells. It's pretty sad when a company can't build a reliable pump-action shotgun.
It most likely just needed the chamber lightly polished. It is a simple 5 minute DIY project and is quite common with many newer guns.

Don't blame Remington for the lack of workmanship on newer guns. As hunters and shooters we need to take a long look in the mirror. The problem is us. As a group we aren't willing to pay for that quality anymore. The cheapest gun sells. If Remington, or any other company is going to survive they produce what sells.

Wingmasters are north of $700 now. Very few people, myself included will pay that for a pump shotgun. At that price I can buy a Beretta semi auto. I can buy an 870 Express for $260. And most people who buy a pump shotgun buy it for harsh use. That is what I'd use for waterfowl hunting. It is the perfect gun for banging around inside a duck boat and to use in the mud, snow, and rain. At the end of day you can hose the mud off, wipe it down, stand it in the corner to dry and go hunting the next day. I ain't doing that with a $700+ shotgun.

With the foreign competition selling shotguns in the $200 range Remington has to cut corners in order to stay competitive. By design the 870 is simply a more expensive gun to produce. And it is still a very solid design. If not the best, certainly the one with the most field testing.

The $260 shotgun is every bit as rugged and reliable as the $760 shotgun. It is the same design, with virtually all the same parts. But to save the $500 you're going to get cheaper wood or plastic, you're going to get matte metal, and you might have to do a little of the final polishing in order to get it to run smooth. I can live with that to save $500. If I want a fancy gun, it won't be an 870.
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Old September 25, 2018, 07:42 PM   #12
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I've got several pre war Remington Rifles and shotguns. That is apples and oranges comparing them to stamped guns. The quality just keeps going down
hill. I like pre 64 Winchesters to, but they have made nothing since that I would buy. Marlin & Savage went down hill before they changed hands too. Even Ruger
& S&W aren't what they use to be. Some guys can buy it and be happy with it, not me. There are enough old good ones floating around that I would rather spend my money on. Most of the new stuff won't be holding its value. It will become just a used implement that detonates a cartridge. Like a car, drive it off the lot and it's lost value.
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Old September 26, 2018, 01:01 AM   #13
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The test is the use of el cheapo steel base cases that have started showing up everywhere.

From another string:

(09/03/2017) So I went out and got another 870 Express....
... Tho this time it was as Remington_Express Tactical "A-TAC" Demo model that had seen some reasonable shooting at corporate.

Being a smoothbore/cylinder, I went through about 7 different brands of slug looking for its favorite food. I found that it really liked the old-fashioned/naked Foster slug in both the Remington 1oz "Slugger" (clover-leaf at 50) and Winchester's similar 1oz "Rifled Slug HP (almost clover leaf).

In fact it ate everything so well -- even though all the bases were clearly copper-coated steel --that I said to myself..."Self, they've fixed the extraction jam when using ElCheapo Winchester WhiteBox...."

....That's wrong....

First ElCheapoWhitebox round req'd me to butt-stroke the bench to get it out. Being stupid, I tried it again. (RESULT: What part of stupid did I fail to understand ?)

Irritated (remember, I'd done this before w/ an Express that I bought for I son-in-law) https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=25, I hauled out my old WingMaster and two more of my reeeeally older Model-12s.

Smooth as silk.
Even w/ ElCheapo Steel Basr

Now I'll grant you that this is cheap ammo (Win WhiteBox, Win "USA" and Field & Stream "Game & Target" all appear to be made by the same Federal outfit in Akron). And since it functions just fine in the old guns, I can't particularly blame Federal.... BUT....

But I sure wish Remington would get its act together after all these years of "Express" problems.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(09/04/2017) Back....

"Improved" Ran a combined box-worth of the Cheapos mentioned above.

Only had two that required table banging; Most shucked reasonably cleanly; and a half-dozen req'd I push the slide forward before it would release/back cleanly.

Came back and did it again starting with 220 through 600grit
The thing's a doggoned mirror.

Film at Six.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(09/05/2017) The problem appears to be (1) badly cut rim clearance opposite the extractor, as well as residual machining ridges in the same area. Both combine to "jam" the ElCheapoExpanded rim against non-existent clearance when the extractor tries to pull [one side of] the opposite side of the rim free.

So after some veewy, veewy careful dremel tool work with LOTSA cutting oil and moderate speeds on the area opposite the extractor....



Deep Breath...
High Brass Remington Slug. Perfect extraction/ejection
Low brass Double-A.... Perfect extraction/ejection

REALLY HOLD BREATH....
25 continuous rounds (7ea at a whack) of mixed low-brass Godawful ElCheapoGrande thin steel bases mentioned in the OP:
Every one slicker than Nasal Mucus --- (Wow !)

Last edited by mehavey; September 26, 2018 at 01:11 AM.
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Old September 26, 2018, 04:30 AM   #14
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I have seen Winchesters, Mossbergs, Novas, and even a BPS being beat on the ground with the el cheapo shells. No one polishes chambers like they used to. I have not seen one I couldn't cure in less than ten minutes with a drill and an automotive drum brake wheel cylinder hone.
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Old September 26, 2018, 06:06 AM   #15
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The problem was not the chamber (so much as) the rim relief being left dead nuts zero opposite the extractor. Combine that fact with a steel base that fireforms itself into a zero clearance shape -- and then stays fireformed w/ zero clearance after firing, to where the shell's rim locks up upon the extractor trying to pivot that rim into that zero-clearance corner . . . .

.... acts like a Chinese finger trap.
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Old September 26, 2018, 09:56 AM   #16
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Went duck hunting last fall...

with my buddy . we were wading a local river during the MI early goose season.
Got to a muck bottom area, and found out that 870's like to "DIVE , muzzle first into the bottom".

Work out back to car and got to buddy's house and started to take-apart the 870.
Took off the fore-end and stock, and rust was already forming.
Told him to warm oven @ 200,and off when the temp was reached., then place wood in to dry.

dis-assembled the metal parts and soaked with wd40, then wipe off and relubed with "SUPER LUBE" and graphite the re-assemble.

The wood dries and was treated with raw linseed oil, for filling the open pores of
the wood.

Not impressed with what I saw.
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Old September 26, 2018, 10:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
You cannot buy a $220 Express and get a Wingmaster - and that appears to anger a lot of folks for some reason, but that is a grade issue, not quality, to me.
I don't think it is just a grade issue; the cheaper Express, built to compete with Mossberg and the cheap clone imports, has corners cut that the higher-end Wingmaster does not. From polishing the chamber, better fit, better finishing, etc. It all comes down to you get what you pay for; some folks are willing to do that, others are not. To some it is very important, to others it is not.
Personally, I like the old Wingmasters and 1100s; they always had great wood for a production gun.
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Old September 26, 2018, 01:36 PM   #18
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It most likely just needed the chamber lightly polished. It is a simple 5 minute DIY project and is quite common with many newer guns.
I own dozens of guns from various manufacturers, and none have ever needed this to extract properly.

My brother's 870 needed to have the chamber properly reamed. We know because the warranty work order said so.

Quote:
Don't blame Remington for the lack of workmanship on newer guns. As hunters and shooters we need to take a long look in the mirror. The problem is us. As a group we aren't willing to pay for that quality anymore.
That argument just doesn't hold much water. As you yourself said, Beretta can make a quality semi-auto shotgun (in the US!) for the same that you would pay for a Remington 870 Wingmaster. That alone tells me the money paid for a new Remington is going somewhere other than than into a quality product.


.

Last edited by Fishbed77; September 26, 2018 at 04:23 PM.
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Old September 28, 2018, 06:37 AM   #19
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My only Remington is a 58 Sportsman. I like its quality just fine.
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Old September 28, 2018, 07:15 AM   #20
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A lot of the issues with extractions come from the fact that most shotgun ammo today comes with steel bases, not brass. The bases expand like brass, but do not contract after firing like brass and can get a little stuck in any chamber that is not 100% smoothly polished. The cheaper guns tend to have chambers like that.
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Old September 28, 2018, 07:44 PM   #21
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The sad thing about it is I have a Stevens 320 that was built in China and it works perfectly with every type of shell that I have tried. My brother in law has a new 870 12 gauge and a Mossy 500 20 gauge that is about three years old. Both of those guns needed work to be reliable.
And my old beat up 1970’s Remington 1100 makes all three of those guns feel like cheap junk.
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Old October 1, 2018, 07:09 AM   #22
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"A lot of the issues with extractions come from the fact that most shotgun ammo today comes with steel bases, not brass."

Interesting. Never considered that. A couple of years ago I was out with friends and the extractor on my 58 sheared off, leaving me high and dry. I wonder if that had any role in the extractor breaking...
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Old October 1, 2018, 09:40 AM   #23
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Someone on a different forum posted about Remington extraction problems. He found
the rough machining marks on the barrel extension caused shells to hang up or not
letting the extractor do it's job.
After cleaning up those rough tooling marks his problems went away.
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Old October 1, 2018, 10:42 AM   #24
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Which is where the Net advice about using 0000 steel wool and oil on a properly-sized wood dowel in a cordless drill come from.
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Old October 2, 2018, 03:46 PM   #25
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So, after all this, if I were in the market for a TAC 14, and I am, should I go ahead and make the purchase, or run like hell?

Joe
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