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Old February 6, 2016, 11:27 PM   #1
Ocraknife
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does slow fire practice improve SD shooting?

I enjoy shooting and go as often as I can.

I usually start off with slow fire, carefully aimed shots focusing on breath control and consistent trigger pull then I'll do single handed (left and right) shooting and point shooting, fast shot drills.

That said, the bulk of my shooting is slow shooting because that is what I enjoy.

Lately I've begun to wonder if slow fire exercises help fast fire accuracy at all. I have no experience in IDPA or IPSC and, by the grace of God, I've never had to draw my weapon in anger so I have no practical experience.

What do you all think? Should I shift some of my slow fire practice over to practical, fast fire drills?
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Old February 7, 2016, 04:04 AM   #2
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If you ever find yourself in a SD situation, I doubt very much you'll be doing much breath control. Practical shooting requires recoil control so you can get back on target as fast as possible. IPSC/USPSA and IDPA are timed events and as such create stress. This is good for practicing self defense, although in a limited way.

Slow fire target shooting teaches you to hit a target. Self defense shooting is under enormous stress, while both you and the target are moving.

I suggest you take some self defense shooting classes. Do you ever draw your gun from a holster? From under your shirt or jacket?

Slow fire target shooting is not nearly the right kind of practice for SD.
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Old February 7, 2016, 10:04 AM   #3
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^^^
Nicely and well said.
The type of slow fire with tight groups seen at most ranges by most people, is for hitting the target.
Shooting for self defense is about surviving a deadly encounter.
The main thing both have in common is the use of a firearm.
Your point shooting practice is probably the more useful of your regiment for self defense.
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Old February 7, 2016, 11:47 AM   #4
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More practice is always going to help... your motor skills, grip-trigger pull- aiming- sight picture- recoil- flash (if you shoot in indoor range)- familiarity with your firearm, speed is important but unknown or observed if you recall you more than likely faster than you were when you first handled your firearm. That said speed will come as normal as breathing in and out. One way I knew I was ready for the next step in speed was I was bored shooting the beginning level I first started, even though accurate not challenging it will happen it has to all of us shooters one way or the other. Just as my long distance would I be content with shooting 100 yrds/mtrs ... absolutely not. Patients is required for personal satisfaction in a gain with practice will remain.
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Old February 7, 2016, 03:28 PM   #5
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All of that makes sense.

I was just wondering if any practice was good practice or if I had to do tactical drills for it to offer any benefit.

I do practice drawing and shooting, point shooting, left and right hand shooting and round clear/slide rack (like I'm clearing a jam) shooting but I don't have a place to practice shooting on the move. I wish I did.
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Old February 7, 2016, 07:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
I don't have a place to practice shooting on the move. I wish I did.
http://www.idpa.com/clubprofile/1822
http://nashvillearmory.com/events.html
http://www.gallatingun.com/

USPSA clubs in TN:
https://www.uspsa.org/locate-uspsa-clubs-results.php
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Old February 8, 2016, 08:55 AM   #7
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All shooting helps you shoot better in self defense. But some kinds of shooting help you more. My advice is to do as many different types of shooting as you can.

Having practiced target shooting formally for years has made me a good shot without thinking about it. Defensive shooting benefits from that. But you must practice defensive shooting, too.
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Old February 8, 2016, 10:03 AM   #8
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Agreed.
If you can't hit a target taking your time and aiming carefully, how can you expect to hit one in a hurry with a "flash sight picture?"

I was never a bullseye shooter but PPC hammered in a bit of marksmanship that is still paying dividends in the action shooting world.
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Old February 8, 2016, 12:17 PM   #9
g.willikers
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It's too bad there aren't more Bianchi Cup style pistol matches around these days.
Its a nice intermediate transition from slow fire Bullseye to action pistol matches.
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Old February 8, 2016, 01:02 PM   #10
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IPSC/USPSA and IDPA are shooting games and nothing more.
Breathing, sight picture and trigger control become natural the more you shoot. Speed comes later by itself and does require training and practice, but a lot of it has to do with the firearm and if you use a holster. Responding to a bump in the night isn't likely to involve a holster.
Like JimPage says, the more different types you do the better you'll get. However, you still need the basics of breathing, sight picture and trigger control. Dry firing is good for that and doesn't require a range or ammo. Door knobs at the end of a hall make good dry fire targets.
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Old February 8, 2016, 01:11 PM   #11
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There is an old mantra-you can't miss fast enough.

You have to be able to actually hit your target. Then you can work on speeding that up.
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Old February 8, 2016, 03:55 PM   #12
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Yes...you should have trigger time for fast fire practice. You'll have to strive towards your failure point. If all your shots in the string hit the target and you're looking around to see other shooters still shooting their string --- you are not reaching your failure point --- so you'll have to speed up a bit. If some are your shots in the string are not hitting the target...you'll have to slow down.

When the subconscious is trained to pull the trigger...all the shooter has to do is aim the sights in relation to firearm use.

Fast fire requires breathing in spurts between shots or shot strings. But remember too breathe...so you don't pass out!

"Two shots in two seconds --- hitting the heart, bullet holes touching each other --- is effective --- But six shots in two seconds...bullets hitting in a combat effective torso zone --- Both are effective...but one is obviously a lot more efficient."

quote: Travis Haley -- The Art of the Tactical Carbine - Volume II
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Old February 9, 2016, 01:38 AM   #13
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Efficient

Quote:
"Two shots in two seconds --- hitting the heart, bullet holes touching each other --- is effective --- But six shots in two seconds...bullets hitting in a combat effective torso zone --- Both are effective...but one is obviously a lot more efficient."
Given previous posts...hard to know what Haley meant vis a vis your stated emphasis on rapid fire practice.
More efficient: That would be the heart shots, correct? Same amount of time. Bad guy dead. Saved four rounds.
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Old February 9, 2016, 09:24 AM   #14
g.willikers
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More holes in the same place on an opponent may not increase the chance of surviving.
And heart damage can take too long to have the desired effect.
Our brains and systems can function for quite awhile without a heart.
According to those who know about human biology, the spine and head are the most effective places to neutralize an aggressor.
Hence the reason for practicing the Mozambique drill.
Then, "bullets hitting in a combat effective torso zone" would have the greater effect over multiple hits in the heart.
Anyone want to volunteer for a test?
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Old February 9, 2016, 10:46 AM   #15
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But before you can shoot six times in a tactical area, its good to get up to the level of being able to shoot where you aim no?

Further different distances require different approaches. Fast shooting at 5 feet is completely different than fast shooting at 25 yards. Aimed practice helps with those greater distances, and you can then practice faster (or more reactive shooting ) at closer ranges. So in essence, you need both skills.

Or do like we did and practice revolver shooting at boulders at 200 yards...good times...
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Old February 9, 2016, 04:11 PM   #16
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I will play! I will take 6 rounds in a 6" circle center of chest/target in 2 seconds, verses 2 rounds in a 2" group every time. If you can put 6 rounds in a 2" circle then you need to increase practice distance for a more challenging session...
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Old February 9, 2016, 04:50 PM   #17
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We were having a heck of a good time last Sunday, at the 100 yard outdoor range...were we built several snowmen at the 100 yard backstop, and took our time whittling them down too size with rapid fire from our AR's.
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Old February 10, 2016, 05:55 AM   #18
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Rapid

Whittling the snowmen.....Standing rapid fire? Sitting and smiling?

Quote:
According to those who know about human biology, the spine and head are the most effective places to neutralize an aggressor.
Hence the reason for practicing
So...How about two shots in two seconds to the frontal lobe?
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Old February 10, 2016, 10:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
What do you all think? Should I shift some of my slow fire practice over to practical, fast fire drills?

Yes and No.

It will help some to practice rapid fire drills at stationary targets to get better at follow up shots and recoil control. But it is far from defensive shooting. Even classes where you are shooting at a single target while moving is also far from defensive shooting. You need to find a IDPA match in your area and have a go at it.

There is so much more than just hitting the bulls eye involved. Rapid target identification, threat assessment, ammo management, magazine reloading skills, proper draw, seeking and using hard cover for protection while shooting. shooting while moving from or to your target, multiple target threats, rapid threat elimination, situation awareness, hitting moving targets, and picking up additional skills that will increase your effectiveness like reducing the time to deliver accurate multiple hits on single targets.

Besides it's fun. Do not be disheartened if you find you suck the first time you try it, you will improve the more you try IDPA matches, besides the people you will meet are great at helping you out.

Indoor ranges can not give you the practice or skills needed for defensive shooting, so please get out to at least one IDPA match to see what you need to improve on with your shooting.

Have fun and stay safe.
Jim
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Old February 11, 2016, 05:58 PM   #20
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training

All of that training.....if that floats your boat and you enjoy it (it probably is a lot of fun. Shooting generally is fun.) I gotta ask, though, what situation is going to demand all of those skills? Can someone document a situation or two wherein a "normal guy" was pressed in such way that the list of skills aforementioned were called upon?
I can think of any number of instances when being armed would have helped save a situation and lives. I cannot think of any situation which involved a running gunfight, multiple magazine changes, scooting from cover to cover, etc.....
I understand that one is perhaps better off preparing for the worst but still.....the emphasis seems a bit extreme as the scenarios outside of military combat are unlikely.
Pete
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Old February 14, 2016, 06:38 PM   #21
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In a word, no. It does not.

SD shootings are so incredibly dynamic, and typically involve movement and rapid close range threat response, that just standing there at the range popping away at your leisure is NOT going to help you much, if at all, in a self defense shooting.

JM2¢.

YMMV.
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Old February 15, 2016, 09:57 AM   #22
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I would buy the books Shooting To Live (Sykes and Fairbairn), follow up with Rex Applegate and the dvd Shoot Him To The Ground. Lou Chiodo had good instruction if you're near southern California. Michael T Rayburn has also written a good text.

One of the most important aspects to defensive shooting is having a gun that fits your hand. Most situations you are going to lock on the target point your gun and pull the trigger. Fist sized groupings are fine. There are four basic positions for this kind of shooting. You can achieve good basic proficiency in a few hours.
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Old February 15, 2016, 10:55 AM   #23
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Most real world incidents occur at contact distance to a few yards out. That's a whole different skill set than shooting a box target from behind a bench. Most guys don't practice contact engagement from concealment with movement. There is no slow is smooth, slow is just slow. It's not breathe and squeeze either, it's grip it and rip it. Slap the heck outta the trigger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-czF...Oqv2M3e3NgrDLw
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Old February 15, 2016, 11:03 AM   #24
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slapping a trigger is less efficient than riding the reset.
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Old February 15, 2016, 11:08 AM   #25
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Is that why all the Grand Masters slap the trigger?

Jarrett and Leatham use a “sweeping” trigger finger motion—literally lifting their finger fully off the trigger between shots. As Leatham explained to me after quickly downing five steel plates, “Everyone slaps the trigger at close range, but it’s the best way to do the long range shooting, too.”

Read more: http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...#ixzz40FmC5FPq
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