A scale, a scale, my kingdom for a scale . . .

[Prof Young]

Loaders:
So I started out using lee dippers as my powder measure. Some dangerous squibs later I moved up to an electronic scale and a lee perfect powder measure. Well, the scale is okay, but it gets unstable. It's a hornady scale and has a neat little case and a weight for calibration. But like I say it's unstable and a coulple times i've dumped out fifty cases and started over. So I've just ordered a lee balance type scale as a back up. In that process i got on line and read a lot of customer reviews about a lot of scales and there doesn't seem to be one that everybody is happy with. I went with the lee balance type as it seemed to come the most close to being well liked. Anyway, is there a powder scale out there that does not break the bank and yet is consistent and absolutely reliable buy all accounts?

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

[TXGunNut]

I like the PACT scale, RCBS balance beam, Lee dippers, RCBS powder measure and the RCBS Chargemaster, depending on the task at hand. What do you want to load?

[balderclev]

I use the Hornady scale because it came with the LNL kit. I set the tare and then watch it every load. It does have a tendency to start backing off. When it gets 1 grain off I hit the tare button to reset it to 0 and reset it with the powder funnel. Not really a problem but you do have to be watchful.

[Lost Sheep]

I am curious as to how dippers could be the cause of a squib.

I have always thought that a dipper was impossible to run "dry", as an empty bowl would be impossible to miss. Likewise, it is very difficult to have bridging or otherwise seriously undercharged cases because of the ease with which each powder charge is eyeballed. That is, unless the dippers contributed to operator error (which is possible, of course).

Please enlighten me.

The Lee Scale is accurate, but most complaints against it are for the difficulty in operating or reading the vernier to get tenths of grains. I prefer my RCBS 10-10 (which tends to break the bank nowadays, but I bought mine in 1975 much cheaper) for its micrometer drum (very easy to read).

Second most popular complaint against the Lee scale is that it is light, made of plastic in the base.

Lost Sheep

[TXGunNut]

Was wondering about that myself, Lost Sheep. Dippers are my go-to measures for BP loads but a BP squib load is quite obviously operator error. Come to think of it, all my squib loads have been operator error...with a very few possible exceptions.
10-10 does indeed cost a bit, very close to a good digital. Some days there's no substitute for a balance beam scale, tho.

[noylj]

Squibs? As in the bullet sticking in barrel?
Can't see it. 1.0 gn of any pistol powder ( up to 2400) as enough energy to get the bullet out of the barrel.
Now, if you mean too light to cycle--yeah, Lee is very optimistic about charge weights from their dippers and disks.
Back in the early '70s, had an RCBS 5-10. When Ainsworth brought out the first "affordable" digital, I immediately ordered it. Never regretted it.
For me, beams are not my preferred instrument.

[Silver00LT]

I started off with a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and Hornady GS-1500 scale. Zero problems, but people had bad reviews of the GS-1500. I think I am JUST now seeing those reasons. I am getting .3 difference between the two scales so my reloading has stopped til my 505 gets in. Then again its been humid...rainy, etc. Could just be a dying battery...maybe not.

Just bought a Hornady Auto Charge and zero problems. The built in scale and GS-1500 match up perfectly(til last night). I have a RCBS 505 Scale in though. I picked it up from eBay for $68 bucks.

I almost bought Lee scale til I read reviews then looked at YouTube videos of it. I bit the bullet and got the 505 as my safety scale.

So I have my Auto Charge scale and now the RCBS 505.

[Technosavant]

I'm not a big fan of the Lee balance scale. Mine just never seemed to read reliably.

I bought an RCBS 1010, which is way overkill for the reloading I do but it works great, is easy to use, and stores incredibly well.

[MarkGlazer]

I have both Lee Powder Measure and the Balance Scale and they do the job. The Powder Measure has an issue when you have to get down to very low grains. I don't care for the adjustment stick as it isn't an accurate in terms of the weighted markings. I adjust the powder drop then test it on the scale, according to my load data of course, then tweak the drop as needed.

The scale itself is a bit touchy so I can understand your hesitation. I re-balance at the start of each session, making sure I'm starting at zero. I also test the grain weight after each block (I work in blocks of 13 cases). Once I set both measure and scale during a session, I've yet to have a malfunction. I've only been loading for 4 months, without incident.

I realize that "manual" is a bit slower, but I prefer it that way. It forces you to focus on each of your steps, hopefully without mistakes.

Good luck.

[Boomer58cal]

I use a RCBS 505. I have two of them. One is older than I am and is still accurate.

Boomer

[serf 'rett]

+1 for the 505 RCBS. Mine works great even though it has experienced a couple tumbles from bench to floor. My old school mentality simply trusts mechanical over electrical.

[Unclenick]

Prof. Young,

Lots of hit and miss out there in scale land. Sometimes the inexpensive electronic ones work fine and other times you get one that drifts or has issues like skipping digits in the tenths of a grain because the scale actually has a native resolution 0.01 grams, whose results are being converted to grains. The least expensive electronic scale I would buy is the less expensive one that Brian Enos sells. At about $75 (last time I looked) there was a 20 year warranty. He told me on the phone that none had ever been returned.

For some of the commercial beam balance scales, like the RCBS 10-10, a fellow named Scott Parker will tune them. That would guarantee you good sensitivity. I don't know what his current price is, though I think I read that he will sell you a pre-tuned one. You'd have to contact him for prices, either way.

[Prof Young]

Several of you asked about the squibs and I'm sure most of it was operator error. I did discover at least once, after I got a scale, that the correct lee dipper was giving a lighter load than the charts indicated as a minimum. I'll have to go back and do some checking to get the details.

Anyway thanks for the thoughts on the scales.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

[Blindstitch]

I recently used some dippers to see what I was getting for a 30-30 round.

The goal was 30 grains of IMR4064 and the dipper that came with my Lee dies measured 28.3 grains. But the old Lee Loader dipper was measuring 25 grains. Sound like a squib in the making to me.

[mattL46]

@blindstitch ive wanted to familiarize myself with the lee dippers (especially as of late considering my scale is currently biting the dust) but ive always been afraid of their inconsistency! I just cant bring myself to trust them truly now that i dont have a scale to check them against for experimentation! Your results are what im afraid of....

[TXGunNut]

I'm using dippers all wrong, but it works for me. I use them in conjunction with a scale and don't bother with the chart. I don't feel they're a substitute for a scale, just a good companion. My BP 45 Colt load, for example, is 2.5cc of KIK FFFg. That translates to 37grs and I use the dippers because some folks, BP folks especially, feel volume is more important than actual weight.

[mattL46]

I've been dying to use the dippers while I'm without scale but don't feel comfortable without the scale!!!

[mattL46]

Not to highjack the professors thread but any opinions on my current situation which is similar to the OP's. Is it I'll advisable to use the Lee dippers with out a means to check accuracy ( no brainer) although they were designed for this use? Opinions?

[Silver00LT]

My dippers....just stay in the die pack. Just something I do not want to risk.

[WESHOOT2]

I recommend the RCBS 505, or the Dillon Eliminator.

With all I most highly recommend a Scale Weight Check Set (I use Lyman), to be used every time the scale is used.

Without exception.

[lee n. field]

So I started out using lee dippers as my powder measure. Some dangerous squibs later I moved up ...

Like others, I'm wondering how that happened.

There is a chart that comes with the dipper set, and it is a good idea to double check that your technique with a particular dipper will measure out X amount of powder. Once you have that figured out, it's hard to see what could go wrong.

The only squibs I've had, were from forgetting to turn the Lee Autodisk Pro to the on position. That, combined with the difficulty of visually checking the tall .38 case in a Pro -1000, lead to no powder dropped at all. Ooops. Which is one reason the Pro-1000 is mostly retired now.

What scale

I have a Lee scale, and an RCBS 505. Had an Ohaus powder scale that I gave to my brother to try to get him started in reloading. All work well. The Lee, as noted, is more difficult to use, but is accurate.

[Silver00LT]

I have a Lee scale, and an RCBS 505. Had an Ohaus powder scale that I gave to my brother to try to get him started in reloading. All work well. The Lee, as noted, is more difficult to use, but is accurate.

My patience I would of ended up using it for target practice. Thus why I went the RCBS 505 route.

[F. Guffey]

Professor Young, it is not a requirement, owning Lee’s book on modern reloading is not a prerequisite to using Lee dippers, then there is that other problem, owning the book and not reading it.

Mr. R. Lee described his dippers as ‘fool proof’, his dippers were designed to dip powder in volume with an open top, he used a business card to lever the dipper, a dipper full to the top and leveled with a business card was the starting load, a dipper full of powder heaped up to a point was the maximum load, the dippers were so scientifically designed excessive powder would roll off, meaning with the correct dipper there was no way to overcharge a case.

He could have increased the diameter of the dipper to increase the minimum/maximum spread, he could have decreased the diameter to decrease the spread between minimum and maximum.

F. Guffey

He also said he did not test Federal primers because Federal did not donate primers to be tested, back to the top, it is neither a requirement to own and or read Lee's book.

[Unclenick]

Interesting point about the heaping design.

It needs to be understood by all that powder bulk density isn't a constant. It varies from lot to lot. If you look at Accurate's site, they have tolerances that range from ±2.2% to ±5.6%. That means, in the worst case, your dipper could throw 5.6% low with one lot and 5.6% high with the next lot. That's an 11.2% difference. So Lee has to choose his data so that if you get an extra dense lot, you still don't create an overcharge. This means the dippers will dispense low on average.

Not only is the above true, but vibration in transportation can change the density the powder had when it left the factory. In the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, I think it was either Dan Hackett or Dave Milosovich who described a load that worked fine when assembled at home, but that caused overpressure signs when assembled at the range. He finally worked out that the powder was packing tighter due to vibration in transporting loaded rounds from home to the range. That lowered its ignition speed by making it harder for the flame front to flow inbetween the more tightly packed grains.

I keep a complete set of dippers. I do use a scale to check what I am throwing with each one. But I also used a dipper with IMR 4198 and a Target Model Lee Loader for .222 Rem, long ago, and drilled many a cloverleaf with that setup. You just want to choose powders that ignite easily and don't mind a little extra space in the case, and that work well at less than maximum pressures in order to use the scoops with VMD tables and no scale. (As an aside, note that Lee's VMD's and Accurate's don't always agree exactly.)

[F. Guffey]

“Interesting point about the heaping design”

”It needs to be understood by all that powder bulk density isn't a constant. It varies from lot to lot. If you look at Accurate's site, they have tolerances that range from ±2.2% to ±5.6%. That means, in the worst case, your dipper could throw 5.6% low with one lot and 5.6% high with the next lot. That's an 11.2% difference. So Lee has to choose his data so that if you get an extra dense lot, you still don't create an overcharge. This means the dippers will dispense low on average”



Back in the old days air freight was not an option and ground transportation did not have air ride suspensions, in the big inning everything rode on bone jarring springs, springs will pack your powder. I have been reading with very little interest a thread about ‘air space’, I was thinking about time and it’s effect when the space outside of the case has it’s turn to have it's effect, I am the fan of air ‘around the case’, not a lot of air, just enough, I do want clean air, I know nothing can get serious inside the case until the air surrounding the case gets pushed out, air is a fluid, it flows, if it does not get out of the way fast enough, air can be compressed.

I have Lee dippers, in sets, one is black (cubic inch), another is yellow, the other set is red. From the very old days I have a dipper that is adjustable for shotgun, it is not a Lee, it is + 60 years FBL before Lee. Back to his book, he claimed he developed loads with his dippers, then found humor in the process, he returned to the shop then used a scale to measure the weight of his dipped loads, because the company that ask him to develop the loads wanted the data in grains.

F. Guffey