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Old May 21, 2018, 10:41 AM   #26
peterg7
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I have all metal semi-autos but I carry plastic. my next gun will be plastic but I’m not one to chase the latest and greatest so how many do I need? One more.


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Old May 21, 2018, 11:08 AM   #27
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Manufacturing by a mold is far less expensive than machining. It's the same as using investment cast/MIM parts vs machined parts. Costs less to cast parts.
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Old May 21, 2018, 01:56 PM   #28
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Polymer/striker pistols bore me, but I have two (Glocks, shocker), and I'd like to have a few more (from SIG and S&W, probably).

I agree that we should appreciate all-metal DA/SA guns while we can (I have a Beretta 92, a CZ 75 and two Colt 1911s, and I definitely want a SIG 226/229), but I think the classic models are going to endure for a long time yet.

Meanwhile, I've taken a new interest in polymer-framed hammer-fired. Lots of coolness there.
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Old May 21, 2018, 02:38 PM   #29
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Pistols with 4" barrels, but subcompact grips.

Glock 19 slide with Glock 26 body.
Individuals have been "chopping" polymer pistols for over a couple of decades now. I did my 19 to 26 conversion way back in early 1990's just when the glock 26 first came out.
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Old May 21, 2018, 02:48 PM   #30
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Guns should also have a hammer...
There hasn't been a new rifle or shotgun design with an exposed hammer in well over 100 years. Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.

I think we'll see new handgun designs made with steel or aluminum alloys about the same time we see a new car designed with wooden wheels. Or a resurgence in wood boats for bass fishing.

Anything with aluminum alloy frames are on the way out. Same with DA/SA trigger systems. I think we will always have a market for some of the traditional steel framed classic handguns such as the 1911. And some aluminum framed guns with DA/SA triggers have reached classic status and may well hang on, at least for a while. But I see no new designs incorporating either aluminum or DA/SA triggers. Modern plastic framed guns do exactly the same job as aluminum, look just as good, cost a lot less and are much more durable.
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Old May 21, 2018, 02:54 PM   #31
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But I see no new designs incorporating either aluminum or DA/SA triggers.
Wait, didn't Springfield just come out with a new hammer fired DA/SA polymer in 2017 called the XDE?
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Old May 21, 2018, 03:02 PM   #32
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There hasn't been a new rifle or shotgun design with an exposed hammer in well over 100 years. Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.

I think we'll see new handgun designs made with steel or aluminum alloys about the same time we see a new car designed with wooden wheels. Or a resurgence in wood boats for bass fishing.

Anything with aluminum alloy frames are on the way out. Same with DA/SA trigger systems. I think we will always have a market for some of the traditional steel framed classic handguns such as the 1911. And some aluminum framed guns with DA/SA triggers have reached classic status and may well hang on, at least for a while. But I see no new designs incorporating either aluminum or DA/SA triggers. Modern plastic framed guns do exactly the same job as aluminum, look just as good, cost a lot less and are much more durable.
But there have been plenty of rifle and shotgun designs in that timeframe that did use hammers, they're just typically easier to conceal, imo, on a rifle or shotgun than a pistol as the needed shroud isn't as obvious. That said there are plenty of pistols that are hammer fired where the hammer isn't particularly exposed, such as the new Ruger Security Nine.

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Old May 21, 2018, 04:30 PM   #33
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Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.
There are positives to having an exposed hammer - re-holstering (the ability to keep a thumb on the hammer to help prevent a negligent discharge) immediately comes to mind. Also, striker-fired pistols (in theory) are susceptible to malfunctions caused by oil, water, or debris in the striker channel. Of course, the fall of a hammer can be blocked by debris, but such a condition would be much easier to identify. There are also benefits to DA/SA pistols (just as there are benefits to constant-action striker-fired pistols), and most DA/SA pistols are hammer-fired (with the notable exception of the striker-fired Walther P99AS and its various copies/clones).

That said, as mentioned earlier, I don't have a horse in this race - I own and have carried both hammer and striker fired pistols. Both are proven systems.
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Old May 21, 2018, 04:56 PM   #34
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Many years ago,my town was about 42,000.We had a couple steak houses,a couple pizza places,a few Mexican restaurants,and some diner/cafes.Oh,lets not forget the drive ins and a couple MikkeeDees

Now my town is a city of around 200,000. There is one restaurant for every 267 people.

How many do we need?.

Its a very tough market. They have to compete. The mediocre fold up.The over priced fold up. Those with lousy service fold up.

For the consumer,we have a lot of choice,some good food,good service,and competitive prices.

Are handguns really that different?

IMO,we benefit. Might some good guns fade away? Yes.

But,you know,the Colt Single Action Army became extinct...pretty much,for awhile.
Between Ruger,Uberti,etc, we still have the genre,and some folks say the better clone sare better than what Colt made.

And,credit where credit is due,the Ruger Bearcat,Single Six,Blackhawk,etc were brilliant and successful INNOVATION.

Colt nearly faded away new production 1911s,till all the clones came.DoesColt have even 5% of the 1911 market?

IMO,its the great rise in people carrying concealed influencing the market.

Smaller,lighter,slimmer,easier to carry are a big deal. Simple operation under extreme stress,safe carry,capacity all are driving both demand and innovation.So is affordability. $400 guns will sell far easier than $1600 guns,even if its plastic vs steel, because its about being armed,not fancy

I recall having great respect for the classic rotary dial land line phone.Wh needs more? Then everyone is"packing" a smart phone.

Dang cartridge rifles took over from muzzle stuffers.

Bolt guns instead of a Sharps? Benelli semi-auto shotgun instead of an LC Smith side by side?

A treager pellet smoker with auger feed and computer controls and WiFi readouts is a whole different way to smoke a brisket

Dang,I miss those flathead Ford V-8's Split rims and tubes!! A man could fixa flat with hand tools and a patch.

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Old May 21, 2018, 08:09 PM   #35
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There hasn't been a new rifle or shotgun design with an exposed hammer in well over 100 years. Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.
I disagree. Unless you are using such a broad definition of "design", that all bolt actions are the same "design", lever actions are the same design, etc. then there absolutely have been "new" designs with exposed hammers, within the last 100 years.

The Browning BLR is the first one that comes to my mind. I'm sure there are others, like the Winchester 9422. I'll grant that they haven't been common, and they LOOK like old designs at a glance, but they are new designs.

And the positive to an exposed hammer is being able to tell, at a glance, (or by feel in the dark) that the gun is cocked. Are there negaitves? yes, everything has them. But don't go saying there are no positives, when there actually are. (unless you frame it as your opinion, in which case you're welcome to what ever it is )

As to polymer framed pistols, I'll consider one, when they make a polymer framed Luger. (yes, the P.08 Luger)
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Old May 21, 2018, 08:14 PM   #36
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As to polymer framed pistols, I'll consider one, when they make a polymer framed Luger. (yes, the P.08 Luger)
Now I'm day dreaming a bit!
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Old May 21, 2018, 10:08 PM   #37
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There are positives to having an exposed hammer - re-holstering (the ability to keep a thumb on the hammer to help prevent a negligent discharge) immediately comes to mind.
Also the ability to double-strike an apparent dud primer.
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Old May 21, 2018, 10:09 PM   #38
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The major consumers, by importance, for handguns are institutions. The military and police markets. These drive the market, and to a large extent innovation. They are a cushion for the industry. Guns used by the military and law enforcement become the most desired guns in the commercial market. They become the most popular consumers guns. The individuals consumers dollar follows this lead. It does not drive it.
Don't tell this to Ruger, or they will close their doors tomorrow. Yes, one big contract like SIG got for the P320 with the US Military is a guarantee that they will have business and make money for many years to come... but Ruger has been making pistols, and making money selling them, for about 40 years longer than Gaston Glock.

Springfield relies on about zero LEO or Government Contracts. S&W these days... not very many. As a matter of fact, S&W is an excellent case study. Just because you are king of the hill today does not mean you will be tomorrow. Another case study we could look at is FNH. They pretty much have the government contract light and medium belt-fed weapon market in the Western world cornered. They had numerous contracts for M16 designs at the turn of the century. Despite this, just 15 years later, they are starting to market their FNX, FNS, and 509 handgun lines aggressively. Despite all of the government contracts they have accrued, they see the utility in marketing to the lucrative civilian pistol market. And I suspect they want use their long-standing military design pedigree to increase brand recognition and begin chipping away at the LEO market as well.

All of this to say... sometimes it actually goes the other way around. Sometimes military and police follow the civilian market. SIG is an example of this. They've had some decent LEO exposure for awhile, and are probably number 2 behind Glock now, but they started out in the US pretty much mainly in the civilian market. CZ is just now starting to discover this. CZ USA spent exactly zero dollars and effort marketing to law enforcement 15 years ago. Now they don't have a huge law enforcement following, but they do have agencies that carry their weapons and they are marketing to others. I suspect that CZ will do well in this arena with their polymer DA/SA line if they market it right. There are a significant number of agencies that lean toward the DA/SA action over the striker action. If CZ started offering aggressive pricing to LEO agencies, and helping with the cost of switching over holsters and mag pouches (yes, both Glock and Sig have also sweetened the deal for large agencies in this area in time past), they would probably get a decent chunk of market share in the LEO market. A rather obscure pistol 20 years ago, known only to a select few in the civilian market, is now pretty much mainstream. 10 years ago my firearms coordinator would not allow anyone to qualify with a CZ pistol for off-duty carry. Now a P07 is my primary carry in plain clothes duty. The word has gotten out, and it started with the civilian market and not mainstream LEO contracts.


Some of what you say is true. Lots of folks own a Glock 19 because their local LEO agency carries it, along with about half a million other cops. It is the gold standard now of value with price/accuracy/reliability. It also has ease of maintenance, ease of use, and ease of carry going for it still. But lots of others are catching up, and I dare say there are better options on the market today. AND... Glock took the LEO market from S&W. Don't think that someone can't do that to Glock. And it may just be by becoming mainstream in the civilian market.
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Old May 22, 2018, 02:42 AM   #39
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There are positives to having an exposed hammer - re-holstering (the ability to keep a thumb on the hammer to help prevent a negligent discharge) immediately comes to mind... There are also benefits to DA/SA pistols...
I also enjoy the peace of mind that comes with feeling the hammer as a gun slides into a holster. It isn't necessary for me but I do like it.

If you really need to take a long shot first in DA/SA, you could thumb-cock it. Unless you have a P99, it's a lot like a traditional double action revolver in that respect. For most defensive purposes, at normal defensive ranges, the longer pull of that initial DA shot shouldn't be a big deal. In any case, I find it less complicated than a manual safety switch.
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Old May 22, 2018, 08:03 AM   #40
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There hasn't been a new rifle or shotgun design with an exposed hammer in well over 100 years.
Henry says otherwise.
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Old May 22, 2018, 03:04 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
I disagree. Unless you are using such a broad definition of "design", that all bolt actions are the same "design", lever actions are the same design, etc. then there absolutely have been "new" designs with exposed hammers, within the last 100 years.

The Browning BLR is the first one that comes to my mind. I'm sure there are others, like the Winchester 9422. I'll grant that they haven't been common, and they LOOK like old designs at a glance, but they are new designs.
Yep.
Some people could (justifiably) argue that we're splitting hairs. ...But I agree.

And I can cite an even newer example: The Marlin 336XLR rifles, specifically those chambered for .338 MX -- introduced just twelve years ago.
Although it looks just like a 336, does use some 'stock' internals, and uses wood that interchanges with standard 336s; it is actually a completely redesigned action, under the skin. (Even diverging from the .308 MX rifles.)
The receiver is milled differently internally. The magazine tube hole location is lower. The magazine is different. The barrel uses a V-thread of its own diameter, rather than the standard Marlin square thread. Most of the internals are unique to the 338 MX model, due to modifications required to handle the increased pressure, the large case diameter, and/or some other factor. The heat-treat is different. And I'm sure I missed more things.

It is, absolutely, still a Marlin 336 on the surface. But it's a new design that's as unique in comparison to a standard 336, as the 9422 is to the Win 94.



There are plenty of others out there, as well.
Right off the top of my head: There are the last of the H&R series of rifles (SB1, SB2, and SB2MAG [10 ga frame]). When H&R 1871 took control, they redesigned the old action designs from scratch, since they were already looking at adding a transfer bar; and introduced the new series around the year 2000, I believe. -They look quite similar to the older versions on the outside, but the receivers and internals are completely different. The internal action parts also operate in a different manner than any previous H&R/NEF shotgun or rifle. None of the internal parts interchange. The stocks don't interchange. And more...
Old concept. Old model line. Looks almost exactly the same. But completely new from the hinge pin, back.



I see the above examples like that of automotive evolution.
A 1970 Corvette and a 2017 Corvette are both the same model, and the heritage of the current model can be seen in the old.
...But they are not the same. Same model. Similar design principles. But totally different.
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Old May 22, 2018, 05:03 PM   #42
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Also the ability to double-strike an apparent dud primer.
There are some striker-fired pistols that have this capability. The Walther P99AS (and its clones and copies) springs immediately to mind.
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Old May 22, 2018, 05:13 PM   #43
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My only handguns are metal-frame Sig P series (P6, P225, 228: all were proofed in Kiel Germany) and two CZ compacts (PO1 and 75 D 'PCR').

I'm a much better shot with a friend's Glock 9mm, but the metal guns look and feel like solid little tanks.


Any possible 'first polymer' handgun for me would probably be an HK 2000 or HK VP9.

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Old May 22, 2018, 05:15 PM   #44
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I imagine the materials are going to change before the operating systems. All of my handguns are hammer fired. 2 of them are polymer frames. Only 2 have an exposed hammer. I don't have a striker pistol or a steel frame pistol.
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:27 PM   #45
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And more succinct to the OPs question. How many do we need? Well, competition is a good thing. The polymer/striker pistol is the "in" thing now. I personally believe competition brings everyone's game up. Glock has always been a reliable platform, but honestly it HAS become better. I must believe that some of this is related to competition upping the game. The striker platform is honestly not my thing (doesn't mean I don't have one, but it isn't my "go to" platform), but it has a lot going for it. Ease of use, manufacturing efficiency, and many other factors make it an easy design to "win" with. None-the-less, it does not have the same character, style, or elegance of an all-steel revolver or hammer fired semi-auto. Said attributes are, indeed, important to many of us. And we are willing to pay more for it on occasion.
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Old May 23, 2018, 02:04 PM   #46
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1911's and Beretta 92/M9's are going to be around for a long time
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Old May 23, 2018, 11:16 PM   #47
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CZ started in the polymer pistol business a long time ago with the ill fated CZ-100. While it had many innovations for the day, the DAO trigger was HORRIBLE, and people could get over the weird looks, especially the "one handed cocking mechanism" halfway down the slide. Then they stayed poly-free until the P-07 Duty, which turned out to be a fast paced learning cycle for CZ. The P-10C is my EDC right now, and I think it has much potential in the LEO field as well.
I only need as many as my current quarters can hld, then I will move to larger quarters.
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Old May 24, 2018, 03:50 AM   #48
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Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.
Because..
The trigger of a hammer fired gun just feels better -- to a whole slew of people.....exposed or not...

As much as I really wanted a Glock 30....I just couldn't bring myself to get one.
The S&W .45 Shield's trigger just felt more "right" to me.

Quote:
Some people could (justifiably) argue that we're splitting hairs. ...But I agree.
Yes---I believe it is hair splitting.
While I love lever action/exposed hammer rifles & nothing beats a "classic" side lock shotgun ( I love my "rabbit ear" SXS Coach gun)..

I'm the first to admit that type of action is just too slow.
Really, really, really good looking - - but - - for a whole lot of uses , way too slow.

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Old May 24, 2018, 04:54 AM   #49
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Old May 24, 2018, 10:53 AM   #50
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I think it’s inevitable that more of this product & market shift is going to happen, but we might have to buy one to have one of these traditional CZ, Beretta, (and Sig?) pistols before they are discontinued. So what do you all think?
It's good to have a couple of really durable and reliable plastic-framed guns to kick the crap out of and really use. But, when it comes to anything over $500 - mental frame only for me. The good quality metal framed pistols will always be things of beauty, will live on forever, be desirable and over time appreciate.
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