Smith & Wesson’s Downfall??

[Nathan]

Seems like Wikipedia missed this by a lot!

They talk about a great up and coming company that had several changes of ownership and now is mysteriously struggling....


I see a company from the 30’s-60’s that was developing and launching great guns. They had good fitting, good design and were well respected. Then there were several sales that led to cheaper manufacturing, loss of their famous blue finish, several deals with anti gunners, which has left them with mim filled, key locked revolvers that few want to buy. I still like them, but won’t buy until they ditch the locks and the mim!


Thank goodness they had sooo many years of making quality products for me to buy!

Your thoughts? What would turn them back to greatness in your mind?

[UncleEd]

Nathan,

Revolvers aren't as hot as they used to be in
this auto pistol world.

But do you have
figures that S&W's revolvers
are dying on the vine and nobody wants them.

I see them in gun stores and then they are
gone. Where'd they go?

You must know or have available sales figures.

From comments on another forum, MIM parts
and the key lock have ceased to be much of an
issue except among those who just like the older
revolvers, period.

Besides, Smith has a lot of other firearms products
than revolvers which also seem to be selling.

[BarryLee]

I suspect the "Trump Slump" has more to do with the fall in S&W's sales figures than MIM parts. The reality is many firearms related businesses have seen a drop in profits since the election, so it is not just S&W. Also, the drop in hunting is hurting sales to some extent as more people move to urban/suburban environments and fewer people take up the activity for various reasons.

[Water-Man]

I'm happy with my 9mm & 45 Shield, as well as my M&P 45 midsize.

[Skans]

I'm bored with semi-auto plastic framed guns.

[NoSecondBest]

I don't think your post is actually reality. It's more your opinion. There is actually a shortage of some models and if you go into places like larger gun shops you'll find a shortage of certain models on a regular basis. When I ask about them, I'm told "they're hard to get due to demand". If you think SW is not selling guns and want to start a thread saying so, publish some sales figures to support your contention. You may or may not be correct, but there's nothing to support your statement.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Seems like Wikipedia missed this by a lot!

Keep in mind that information on Wikipedia is posted by users, so its quality, veracity, and timeliness varies wildly from article to article.

If you are annoyed about info on Wikipedia being incorrect or out-of-date, feel free to do some verifiable research and update it.

Full disclosure: Editing Wikipedia pages is an on-off hobby of mine, but my recent focus has been late-model Toyotas.

[SPEMack618]

And also, to keep in mind with Wikipedia, the leftist comedy website Cracked post about how the NRA nearly killed S&W via boycott after the internal lock fiasco. And posted about how the users of the Firearms portal on Wikipedia are like a "mini-NRA".

With that in mind, and knowing that Wikipedia is edited by users from the internet, I'd be very mindful of anything firearms related on Wiki for the next little bit.

As a guy behind the counter, I sell every S&W Shield, BG380, and M&P-15 I can get my hands on.

[T. O'Heir]

"...loss of their famous blue finish..." That happened long before any of us here were born. Done because it cost too much to do. Both in time and money.
Know a guy who has a BAR LMG made for the civilian market in the 1920's with it( Including the mags.) though. It's really pretty. The stock is the most pretty burly walnut you ever saw too.
Smith's issue was primarily the move from revolvers to pistols by PD's. That and the only pistol they make that's any good is the M41.
"...MIM parts..." Perceived as being some how lower quality. Even by Ruger aficionados. Ruger's entire business is based on investment castings.
"...keep in mind with Wikipedia..." Is not a good source of correct information. Lotta internet nonsense gets promulgated there and anybody with internet access can post anything they want. Must admit it's getting better, but it's still not a good place to quote.

[jmr40]

I read the link and don't see any glaring errors.

I still like them, but won’t buy until they ditch the locks and the mim!

They make lots of guns without locks. I have 3 recent purchases with no lock. MIM is everywhere among all manufacturers and ain't going away. It also doesn't hurt anything.

[Scorch]

S&W is suffering from the same malaise the entire United States is suffering from. We have been in a major recession since 2007 (can you say Great Depression?) with record unemployment and many people taking lower paying jobs to pay the bills (less disposable income for buying toys). There has been a major shift in the firearms industry with the advent of polymer firearms and the move towards semi-autos. All manufacturers have seen a drop in profits with customers buying less expensive firearms over the traditional machined/closely hand fitted firearms. Off-shoring of manufacturing (globalization) means fewer value-added jobs in general, and inflation takes up what little pay increase people get, so they buy cheap stuff. And finally, ALL firearms manufacturers are experiencing slumping sales due to the fact that the market is returning to normal pre-Obama volumes since Trump got elected and people quit panic buying. You will see a lot of like-new guns on the market in coming years as buyers dump their surplus guns, which will detract from new gun sales again.

[peterg7]

^ the politicians just kicked the can down the road so this long slow trainreck is still in motion.

I expect S&W to disappear as will Colt and Remington, it’s not about MIM or blueing it about bad business models or more accurately trying to keep selling in a saturated market with consumers in debt over their head.


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[mete]

MIM ? It works fine IF used in a proper application with proper quality !! We have instead a company owned and controlled by a finance company out to make as much money as they can with little regard for quality and long term effects.
Ever increasing companies are bought and controlled by investment companies whose goal is greed !

[Nathan]

Can you guys show me where to find s&w revolver sales trend data?

Oh, you mean they don't publish negative trends....what a shock!

I did find stuff showing Ruger increasing market share....hmmmm.


Go ahead and attack me....I guess I just don't have a finger on the pulse of national revolver sales trends. I just know it is darn hard to find a new one, then I puke a little when I see the finish, grips and lock....

Colt seems mostly out of the snake gun business....I wonder why?

My point is, I would buy their new guns if they could roll back to the 70's...no locks, no MIM, good fit, tuned triggers, etc,

[SPEMack618]

I really doubt S&W is going away as long as major PDs keep buying the new M&P polymer guns.

And as long as they build half way decent entry level AR rifles.

[UncleEd]

Nathan,

If your 70s guns came back, I am sure
you'd pay the prices necessary.

And I'm sure other buyers would not.

While I love old Smiths and have
several, I wouldn't expect a company
to resurrect methods that have long
since proved too costly for mass
marketing products.

Sit down, take a breath Nathan, and
realize you're living in the past.

[Scorch]

One of my customers feels the same way, the best guns were in the 1970s or 1980s. Real steel, he says. Wants his new S&Ws outfitted with solid steel triggers, hammers, and bolts. OK, no problem, Power Custom makes tool steel ones. How does $500 sound for new hammer, trigger, and bolt? He didn't bat an eye and I did it. Now he's a little more reticent to talk about the "good old days" with me.

Oh, and Colt got out of the "snake gun" business because of declining sales, increasing costs, and liability concerns. I have read articles where people speculate you would pay close to $3000 for a Python these days if they were coming from Colt. Hey! Guess what! You can buy a like new in box Python on Gunbroker for about $3000! Not too many takers at that price. And that was the problem with Colts, too much hand work, too many labor issues, too steep of a price when you could buy a S&W for half as much.

[HiBC]

I'm not trashing revolvers.I like them.
I don't get the same "OOOOOh! Nice!!! feeling about the polymer semi's.

A loose,imperfect analogy would be comparing a Snap-On tool to a Harbor Freight tool,at least in my emotional reaction.

But I just can't,or do not,afford Snap-On tools unless I can get a deal used.

Nothing wrong with your preferences,but you represent a small market that won't sustain S+W.
S+W knows how to do things your way.They could sit comfortable doing same -old...and they would die.
Instead they took risks,rolled with new realities,and they do the best they can at being successful.

Corporate take-overs? Been there.There is no greedy S+W Wizard of Oz at S+W who says "Lets sell our company to an Evil Greedy Conglomerate!!! "

The Big Business Boys just do it.

I worked 27 years for a very successful consumer product company.You might find the products in the bathroom.

We had a pension benefit,and our financial folks strongly overfunded the pension.They wanted to be responsible.They wanted the pension to be there.(Non-Union shop,BTW)

Well,a great big Steel Corporation came along.They cared nothing about bathroom products. Their (union) pension fund was way UNDER funded.
So they bought us out to raid the pension funds.

Life is not fair,but it is what it is.

One more thing: To sell product in Europe or to gain Military Contracts,etc, Manufacturing Companies must become certified to various Quality Standards.
Like ISO 9000,etc.

Those standards DEMAND all tools,processes,etc be documented and followed.

These standards have NO PLACE for Old Joe,the guy who uses 20 years of experience to do hand work.
They don't want a file or stone anywhere.
Qualified suppliers make the parts.Parts come out of the stockroom and go in the product. Period.
If the parts have burrs or need a file stroke,they are non-conforming parts,the lot is rejected

They can't afford a change in quality if Old Joe drops dead.Joe's gone! What do we do? Only Joe could fit the franistan!!

You don't just hire a franistan fitter!

Like it or not,thats what IS.

You get the fancy stuff by hiring custom pistol smiths.Old Joe

[SPEMack618]

I try to explain to people that the polymer DAO double stack 9mm is the modern day equivalent of the 4 inch six shot .38 Special police revolver.

S&W has finally gotten it right with the M&P series pistols in the regards, even going so far as to badge them with the name of thier original .38 Spl revolvers.

Now, the name irks me to no end, but there is no disputing that they sale well.

[Nathan]

Their m&p pistols are great, but I agree it was bad to use the name. I really like my Shield and will soon buy a 2.0. Good guns.

I guess I’m more focused on the downfall of their revolvers, specifically their blues steel revolvers. I may try a new on like the 625 45 acp.

The will be after I find the right 14-2 3T revolver! ....or I might hold out for 25-2.

[Rembrandt]

If Smith & Wesson sold the model 41.....for say....$500, that would cause a stampede (I'd buy four of them).

[HiBC]

Their m&p pistols are great, but I agree it was bad to use the name.

OK,I get your sentiment. the M+P name has a particular meaning to you.

But to S+W ,M+P is a line of firearms geared to Military and Police.
The S+W AR-15 type rifle is called an M+P by S+W today.
The guns they sell to LEO's and hope to sell to military are designated M+P.
Its about a product line.
Guns for today's Military and Police.And they have changed from the guns that represented the M+P of most of the 20th century.

[dahermit]

"...MIM parts..." Perceived as being some how lower quality. Even by Ruger aficionados. Ruger's entire business is based on investment castings.

I have no idea what was meant by that. MIM is not the same as investment casting, not related. It would seem that carefully expressing one's self is equally important as correct spelling.

[mete]

MIM =Metal Injection Molding
This is an extension of the older Powder Metal technique which Remington was involved with in the '60s and '70s. Powdered metal is placed in a mold , compressed then sintered [heated to bond the particles ] .
With MIM the metal particles are mixed with a polymer , injection molded, then the mix is heated to remove the polymer [ like a wax ]. then at higher temperature is sintered . A number of variables but if everything is done properly it works fine . Gun companies obviously skipped the last sentence !!!

[HiBC]

On MIM parts:
At least for the degree they are used today,its a relatively new technology...sort of.Ball bearings and gears have been "sintered" for a long time.
The process has been adapted to injection molding.
For nearly all manufacturing technologies there is a learning curve.The designers accustomed to traditional manufacturing process have found trouble creating clones of forged/machined parts in MIM parts.It does not necessarily work.For example,molded parts require uniform wall sections. A very heavy wall section (like a traditional hammer) creates problems.
The parts adapted to MIM may not have the real estate for a traditional DA Revolver design.
The plan of starting with a clean sheet of paper and creating a new design to capitalize on modern manufacturing methods is a good one.
Stoner did that.Glock did that. So did Eli Whitney.And Bill Ruger.

By whatever forming technology,powdered metal parts are not inherently inferior gun parts. They just have different characteristics. That may frustrate a pistolsmith. Fair enough.
Consider a chef knife edge.It requires certain characteristics.
These days,the chef knife "super steels" include powdered metal, R-2 and SG-2 among them.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sg2steel.html