Training Organization Called "Crucible"?

Kestrel · December 26, 2001, 08:10 PM

Has anyone heard of a training organization called "Crucible ____ ____"? I think one of the principals is named Kelly McCann.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with them?

Thanks,
Steve

sigmund · December 26, 2001, 10:11 PM

Kelly McCann has been been making a big splash on the cable news shows as an expert on strategy and tactics, commenting on the current events in Afghanistan. I know little about McCann, but the quality of some of the other "experts" appearing on these shows has been uneven. McCann talks the talk and knows the jargon. He sounds knowledgeable and impressive. Based on a film clip of his training methods (see last paragraph below) he is a macho clown and an accident waiting to happen.

McCann did a video for Paladin Press under the name of Jim Grover. Haven't seen it. He also has a book published by Paladin Press that is a collection of columns called "Personal Security" he wrote for Guns & Ammo magazine, also under the name of Jim Grover. The book is pretty good advice on self protection and proper use of fire arms.

The book lists the contact as: Crucible Learning Center, PO Box 6000, Fredericksburg, VA 22406.

One of the news channels, CNN or Fox or whoever, did an on-site interview with McCann, including a brief look at the Crucible facilities. After seeing that film, I would never attend training there. To show off their sniper training, McCann and the reporter sat in camp chairs on a rifle range within about six feet of a human dummy type target. A hidden sniper took out the target with a head shot from something like 200 yards. I was shocked to see that level of irresponsibility from a supposed expert on firearms, safety and security. If you are stupid enough to sit on the wrong end of a live range, that's your business. To do so with a client or journalist who doesn't know any better is criminal.

Tamara · December 26, 2001, 11:11 PM

Boy, members of Britain's royal family and U.S. political figures who regularly sit in as "hostages" in the "killing houses" of the SAS and the FBI's HRT must be criminally insane.

Want to bet that the journalist was feigning "surprise" and had signed a stack of waivers before that scene was shot?

sigmund · December 27, 2001, 12:38 AM

Tamara--Are you saying that "Royals" play hostages in scenarios using live ammo? Never heard of that, but yes, I would call that insane. Murphy's Law applies, particularly with live rounds.

The reporter in the Crucible film clip knew what was coming, he just didn't know how dangerous it was. I don't care how good the shooter is, I consider sitting 6 feet away from a target with a sniper/instructor shooting live ammo from 200 yards to be irresponsible. I have never heard of a reputable or competent instructor pointing anything other than an orange gun in the direction of any person, and I would never trust anyone who did.

fed168 · December 27, 2001, 02:22 AM

Yes, the Royals have sat in on live fire. The Picture History of the SAS, I think it is called, has several photos of the Charles and Di at a table when entry was made. Di looked none too happy, and Charles looked like he was having a ball.
As of the printing of that book, one troopie had been killed in that sort of training.
A colleague of mine was in a sniper school that offered a set up like the video mentioned. He said heck no to sitting near the bad guy.

Tamara · December 27, 2001, 02:30 AM

One of the stunts the HRT pulls for VIP guests on a regular basis is to have them stand in a room interspersed with "terrorist" targets.

The lights are then turned out.

In the pitch darkness the visitors hear the phut-phut of silenced MP5's and the tinkling of spent brass and might feel something brush their clothing.

When the lights are turned back on, the "tangos" are riddled with bullet holes and the amazed guests all have post-it notes stuck to their backs stating "You have just been rescued by the HRT".

'Nother anecdote on the same lines:

George Bush Sr. sat as a hostage for one of the US CT teams (can't remember if it was Delta or HRT) when he was VP. His Secret Service guards freaked at the suggestion, but he insisted. They finally relented on the condition that he wear a vest and had two less-than-amused Secret Service agents sitting beside him.

Spectre · December 27, 2001, 02:35 AM

I seem to recall the Royal Family is involved in this type of live fire exercise twice a year.

Jake 98c/11b · December 27, 2001, 06:18 AM

While it may bother some of the more timid members of TFL I have no problem with this sort of live fire training (live no shoots among bad guy targets) if it is conducted by people I trust. I think I might have seen some of the clip mentioned, with the sniper at 200m, we keep the news channel running in the office at work. Wasn't the target about 6 feet over the heads of the news crew? Wasn't the 'Expert' (Mcann I suppose) closer to the target than the 'guests'? If a precision shooter with a decent rifle can't shoot within 36 MOA of his target at 200 how can you call him a precision marksman?

This kind of training is done regularly by several high speed teams around the world. It is done for several reasons, first and foremost to develoup a trust among the members of a team. When others are brought in, like the royal family, it is done to show the competence of the protection/rescue team to those they are to defend. It will also help you weed out those few who may get that far in training who are not able to deal with the idea of live targets and those who, when it comes down to it, are just too timid to do the job.

I am not advocating the practice for everyone, far from it. I don't think this is something to be taken lightly, it is the most extreme form of live fire training imaginable but it does have it's place.

Tamara · December 27, 2001, 11:54 AM

You should see the Portuguese Grupo De Operacoes Especiais in live fire training! Two rows of guys facing each other; each row is alternating operator-target-operator. You fire at the target directly across from you, some 25m away; while standing about a foot-and-a-half on either side of that target are two of your buddies blazing away at targets a foot-and-a-half on either side of you. I guess you really have to trust your teammates in that unit!

dctag · December 27, 2001, 12:09 PM

From my understanding Kelly Mcann aka "Jim Grover" of Guns and Ammo fame is very credible. I think he has been around the block more than just a couple times.

As for life fire exercises I think all high speed low drag guys do them on occasion. I would be willing to sit in on some of them depending on who did them. I know in the US there are at least 3 teams that I would be comfortable sitting in on Delta, Devgroup Team 6, and the FBI HRT. Same goes for inactive operators as was probably the case in the video clip you saw. Mcann is no idiot if he was sitting down range from his sniper with a reporter you can be damn sure that the sniper was as qualified as it gets for that exercise.

FanAttic · December 27, 2001, 01:01 PM

Over the Christmas holiday my brother-in-law surprised us by showing up at the cabin that we always rent for a family get together. He is a secret service agent who applied for and received presidential duty when bush became president. In fact, I have a sweet little picture of him next to Bush on the campaign trail, before he was elected president. I won't post it, because I really don't know if he will get in trouble or anything strange like that.

He told a couple of us about the live fire training that they go through. He said that there are certain SS members that have to stand down range while EXPERTLY trained people shoot various weapons all around them. He said that part of the reason was to be able to identify type of weapon being fired, direction of shooter, etc.

I have a feeling that some of it also has to do with some of the other comments that people made on this thread, including the weeding out of undesirable SS agents and as a trust thing. I must confess that I sat open mouthed as he told us this.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised however. The SS trains there agents in more ways than I could ever imagine. My brother in law is now a fully trained EMT, can do the cool 180 whip around car trick with the presidential limo, has driven a car on 2 wheels, is versed in too many weapons to mention, etc. etc.

I can't imagine having bullets whiz by my head, but I guess that is a chance even you and I take everytime we head out the front door. I've just decided to return the favor on anyone wishing me harm.

Out

Erik · December 27, 2001, 03:59 PM

FOX News did a three part series on McCann and Crucible, of which the sniper scenario was featured in one. I saw three different ones at any rate. Maybe there's another?

I particularly enjoyed the drills involving multiple adversaries beginning with the one behind the shooter and one involving a moving vehicle, two shooters, cover, and multiple adversaries.

Anyway, everything looked top notch and competently run. McCann seemed to know his business judging from the demonstrations and explainations.

I'd attend.

As for live people on a (expert) live range. I imagine that it isn't for everyone. If not, don't volunteer.

CWL · December 27, 2001, 06:36 PM

Live fire excercises involving VIPs are also meant for the VIPs to become familiar with weapons fire during extreme moments and to train them how to respond properly. VIPs have pre-arranged methods of action that have been worked out with HRT personnel.

This keeps them from jumping up and running into gunfire if there ever is a rescue situation.

SKN · December 28, 2001, 06:07 AM

Live fire exercises which utilize targets arrayed in very near proximity to personnel are called 'confidence drills'. They are closely monitored and highly choreographed affairs utilized by many of the best units tasked with hostage rescue missions. They are not undertaken lightly or on the spur of the moment but only after quite a long period of training work ups. My team used this type of drill and I took part in them as both 'victim' and 'rescuer'. This was before the advent of Simunitions technology which has perhaps supplanted the need for such high risk training.

fix · December 28, 2001, 11:22 AM

To answer your first question, yes. Lately, there aren't many Fox News viewers who haven't heard of them.

Second question, [email protected]

As to the questions posed regarding their credibility, Kelly is the real deal...and his organization is top notch.

ATeaM · December 30, 2001, 05:21 AM

Where is Paladin press located ?

Quartus · December 30, 2001, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Where is Paladin press located ?

www.google.com

EVERYTHING is located there.

But they're anti.

444 · December 30, 2001, 10:46 PM

In one of Andy McNabb's books on the SAS he mentioned that you probably wondered why Pricess Di changed her hairstyle at one point. He said that her hair was set on fire from a flash/bang grenade during one of these exercises. He pointed out that this training was conducted regularly and it was not just for the SAS, they could have used paper targets for that. The point was so that the royals knew the drill and didn't do anything unexpected if they ever had to actually put this drill into practice.

ATeaM · December 31, 2001, 02:29 AM

Err, uh...I ment physical address guys. Thanks anyways. I thinks its across the street from my gym but not sure.

Quartus · December 31, 2001, 07:00 AM

Erick, there's a thread fer ya...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...oogle+AND+anti

I really wish it weren't so.

stevetuna · December 31, 2001, 09:52 AM

Hey 444, you stole my thunder - I read Andy McNabb's book and laughed about Lady Di's hair as well...

jpd82 · December 31, 2001, 03:53 PM

Tell me if this is a misprint. I went to the crucible web site, I was looking at the hand to hand combat classes. It said you need to be 28 to join. This has to be wrong. Hell, I joined the army 10 days after I graduated high school.

dctag · January 1, 2002, 12:17 AM

If it says 28 I would venture to say that it is only to dissuade punk 20 year olds. If you call them and you have proper credentials (military, police, federal law enforcement) I bet that they will accomodate you. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

ATeaM · January 1, 2002, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Tell me if this is a misprint. I went to the crucible web site, I was looking at the hand to hand combat classes. It said you need to be 28 to join. This has to be wrong. Hell, I joined the army 10 days after I graduated high school.

Yea, I checked that after reading your post. I don't know how they came up with 28. My guess is they think the younger guys would make the old guys feel uncomfortable (the old guys being the ones who can afford his course). From the sound of it, his courses seem designed for people without the time or physical ability to learn how to really let loose. Which is fine, especially if you have deep pocket books.

December 26, 2001, 08:10 PM	#1
Kestrel Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2001 Posts: 363	Training Organization Called "Crucible"? Has anyone heard of a training organization called "Crucible ____ ____"? I think one of the principals is named Kelly McCann. Does anyone know how to get in touch with them? Thanks, Steve

December 26, 2001, 10:11 PM	#2
sigmund Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Location: Urbandale, Iowa Posts: 346	Kelly McCann has been been making a big splash on the cable news shows as an expert on strategy and tactics, commenting on the current events in Afghanistan. I know little about McCann, but the quality of some of the other "experts" appearing on these shows has been uneven. McCann talks the talk and knows the jargon. He sounds knowledgeable and impressive. Based on a film clip of his training methods (see last paragraph below) he is a macho clown and an accident waiting to happen. McCann did a video for Paladin Press under the name of Jim Grover. Haven't seen it. He also has a book published by Paladin Press that is a collection of columns called "Personal Security" he wrote for Guns & Ammo magazine, also under the name of Jim Grover. The book is pretty good advice on self protection and proper use of fire arms. The book lists the contact as: Crucible Learning Center, PO Box 6000, Fredericksburg, VA 22406. One of the news channels, CNN or Fox or whoever, did an on-site interview with McCann, including a brief look at the Crucible facilities. After seeing that film, I would never attend training there. To show off their sniper training, McCann and the reporter sat in camp chairs on a rifle range within about six feet of a human dummy type target. A hidden sniper took out the target with a head shot from something like 200 yards. I was shocked to see that level of irresponsibility from a supposed expert on firearms, safety and security. If you are stupid enough to sit on the wrong end of a live range, that's your business. To do so with a client or journalist who doesn't know any better is criminal. __________________ If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have not prepared properly.

December 26, 2001, 11:11 PM	#3
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Boy, members of Britain's royal family and U.S. political figures who regularly sit in as "hostages" in the "killing houses" of the SAS and the FBI's HRT must be criminally insane. Want to bet that the journalist was feigning "surprise" and had signed a stack of waivers before that scene was shot? __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 27, 2001, 12:38 AM	#4
sigmund Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Location: Urbandale, Iowa Posts: 346	Tamara--Are you saying that "Royals" play hostages in scenarios using live ammo? Never heard of that, but yes, I would call that insane. Murphy's Law applies, particularly with live rounds. The reporter in the Crucible film clip knew what was coming, he just didn't know how dangerous it was. I don't care how good the shooter is, I consider sitting 6 feet away from a target with a sniper/instructor shooting live ammo from 200 yards to be irresponsible. I have never heard of a reputable or competent instructor pointing anything other than an orange gun in the direction of any person, and I would never trust anyone who did. __________________ If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have not prepared properly.

December 27, 2001, 02:30 AM	#6
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	One of the stunts the HRT pulls for VIP guests on a regular basis is to have them stand in a room interspersed with "terrorist" targets. The lights are then turned out. In the pitch darkness the visitors hear the phut-phut of silenced MP5's and the tinkling of spent brass and might feel something brush their clothing. When the lights are turned back on, the "tangos" are riddled with bullet holes and the amazed guests all have post-it notes stuck to their backs stating "You have just been rescued by the HRT". 'Nother anecdote on the same lines: George Bush Sr. sat as a hostage for one of the US CT teams (can't remember if it was Delta or HRT) when he was VP. His Secret Service guards freaked at the suggestion, but he insisted. They finally relented on the condition that he wear a vest and had two less-than-amused Secret Service agents sitting beside him. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 27, 2001, 02:22 AM	#5
fed168 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2000 Posts: 1,040	Yes, the Royals have sat in on live fire. The Picture History of the SAS, I think it is called, has several photos of the Charles and Di at a table when entry was made. Di looked none too happy, and Charles looked like he was having a ball. As of the printing of that book, one troopie had been killed in that sort of training. A colleague of mine was in a sniper school that offered a set up like the video mentioned. He said heck no to sitting near the bad guy.

December 27, 2001, 02:35 AM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I seem to recall the Royal Family is involved in this type of live fire exercise twice a year. __________________ John Wandering Thoughts

December 27, 2001, 06:18 AM	#8
Jake 98c/11b Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Posts: 471	While it may bother some of the more timid members of TFL I have no problem with this sort of live fire training (live no shoots among bad guy targets) if it is conducted by people I trust. I think I might have seen some of the clip mentioned, with the sniper at 200m, we keep the news channel running in the office at work. Wasn't the target about 6 feet over the heads of the news crew? Wasn't the 'Expert' (Mcann I suppose) closer to the target than the 'guests'? If a precision shooter with a decent rifle can't shoot within 36 MOA of his target at 200 how can you call him a precision marksman? This kind of training is done regularly by several high speed teams around the world. It is done for several reasons, first and foremost to develoup a trust among the members of a team. When others are brought in, like the royal family, it is done to show the competence of the protection/rescue team to those they are to defend. It will also help you weed out those few who may get that far in training who are not able to deal with the idea of live targets and those who, when it comes down to it, are just too timid to do the job. I am not advocating the practice for everyone, far from it. I don't think this is something to be taken lightly, it is the most extreme form of live fire training imaginable but it does have it's place.

December 27, 2001, 11:54 AM	#9
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	You should see the Portuguese Grupo De Operacoes Especiais in live fire training! Two rows of guys facing each other; each row is alternating operator-target-operator. You fire at the target directly across from you, some 25m away; while standing about a foot-and-a-half on either side of that target are two of your buddies blazing away at targets a foot-and-a-half on either side of you. I guess you really have to trust your teammates in that unit! __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

December 27, 2001, 12:09 PM	#10
dctag Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Orem Utah Posts: 47	From my understanding Kelly Mcann aka "Jim Grover" of Guns and Ammo fame is very credible. I think he has been around the block more than just a couple times. As for life fire exercises I think all high speed low drag guys do them on occasion. I would be willing to sit in on some of them depending on who did them. I know in the US there are at least 3 teams that I would be comfortable sitting in on Delta, Devgroup Team 6, and the FBI HRT. Same goes for inactive operators as was probably the case in the video clip you saw. Mcann is no idiot if he was sitting down range from his sniper with a reporter you can be damn sure that the sniper was as qualified as it gets for that exercise.

December 27, 2001, 01:01 PM	#11
FanAttic Member Join Date: December 3, 2001 Location: South Bend, Indiana Posts: 25	Over the Christmas holiday my brother-in-law surprised us by showing up at the cabin that we always rent for a family get together. He is a secret service agent who applied for and received presidential duty when bush became president. In fact, I have a sweet little picture of him next to Bush on the campaign trail, before he was elected president. I won't post it, because I really don't know if he will get in trouble or anything strange like that. He told a couple of us about the live fire training that they go through. He said that there are certain SS members that have to stand down range while EXPERTLY trained people shoot various weapons all around them. He said that part of the reason was to be able to identify type of weapon being fired, direction of shooter, etc. I have a feeling that some of it also has to do with some of the other comments that people made on this thread, including the weeding out of undesirable SS agents and as a trust thing. I must confess that I sat open mouthed as he told us this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised however. The SS trains there agents in more ways than I could ever imagine. My brother in law is now a fully trained EMT, can do the cool 180 whip around car trick with the presidential limo, has driven a car on 2 wheels, is versed in too many weapons to mention, etc. etc. I can't imagine having bullets whiz by my head, but I guess that is a chance even you and I take everytime we head out the front door. I've just decided to return the favor on anyone wishing me harm. Out __________________ "If you want to make God laugh, tell him all your plans." "MOLON LABE"

December 27, 2001, 03:59 PM	#12
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	FOX News did a three part series on McCann and Crucible, of which the sniper scenario was featured in one. I saw three different ones at any rate. Maybe there's another? I particularly enjoyed the drills involving multiple adversaries beginning with the one behind the shooter and one involving a moving vehicle, two shooters, cover, and multiple adversaries. Anyway, everything looked top notch and competently run. McCann seemed to know his business judging from the demonstrations and explainations. I'd attend. As for live people on a (expert) live range. I imagine that it isn't for everyone. If not, don't volunteer. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

December 27, 2001, 06:36 PM	#13
CWL Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2001 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,576	Live fire excercises involving VIPs are also meant for the VIPs to become familiar with weapons fire during extreme moments and to train them how to respond properly. VIPs have pre-arranged methods of action that have been worked out with HRT personnel. This keeps them from jumping up and running into gunfire if there ever is a rescue situation.

December 28, 2001, 06:07 AM	#14
SKN Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 1998 Location: Oregon Posts: 264	Live fire exercises which utilize targets arrayed in very near proximity to personnel are called 'confidence drills'. They are closely monitored and highly choreographed affairs utilized by many of the best units tasked with hostage rescue missions. They are not undertaken lightly or on the spur of the moment but only after quite a long period of training work ups. My team used this type of drill and I took part in them as both 'victim' and 'rescuer'. This was before the advent of Simunitions technology which has perhaps supplanted the need for such high risk training.

December 28, 2001, 11:22 AM	#15
fix Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2001 Posts: 919	To answer your first question, yes. Lately, there aren't many Fox News viewers who haven't heard of them. Second question, [email protected] As to the questions posed regarding their credibility, Kelly is the real deal...and his organization is top notch.

December 30, 2001, 05:21 AM	#16
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Where is Paladin press located ?

December 30, 2001, 10:46 PM	#18
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	In one of Andy McNabb's books on the SAS he mentioned that you probably wondered why Pricess Di changed her hairstyle at one point. He said that her hair was set on fire from a flash/bang grenade during one of these exercises. He pointed out that this training was conducted regularly and it was not just for the SAS, they could have used paper targets for that. The point was so that the royals knew the drill and didn't do anything unexpected if they ever had to actually put this drill into practice. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

December 31, 2001, 02:29 AM	#19
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Err, uh...I ment physical address guys. Thanks anyways. I thinks its across the street from my gym but not sure.

December 31, 2001, 07:00 AM	#20
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Erick, there's a thread fer ya... http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...oogle+AND+anti I really wish it weren't so. __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

December 31, 2001, 09:52 AM	#21
stevetuna Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2001 Location: Nantucket, MA Posts: 258	Hey 444, you stole my thunder - I read Andy McNabb's book and laughed about Lady Di's hair as well...

December 31, 2001, 03:53 PM	#22
jpd82 Junior Member Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: California Posts: 10	Tell me if this is a misprint. I went to the crucible web site, I was looking at the hand to hand combat classes. It said you need to be 28 to join. This has to be wrong. Hell, I joined the army 10 days after I graduated high school.

January 1, 2002, 12:17 AM	#23
dctag Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Orem Utah Posts: 47	If it says 28 I would venture to say that it is only to dissuade punk 20 year olds. If you call them and you have proper credentials (military, police, federal law enforcement) I bet that they will accomodate you. I could be wrong but I doubt it.