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Old April 20, 2002, 08:12 AM   #1
Alex Szabo
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Mail Order Ban Proposed by Waxman...

Gang,

In a previous thread ( http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=109701 ) you may recall Waxman attempting to candle the filming of the proceeding. I am posting the potential reason behind it. I find it distrubing to note that 'records' are to be kept. Time to put pen to paper or words to a e-mail and to post your concerns to your appropriate representatives!

HR 4101 IH
107th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. R. 4101

To amend title 18, United States Code, to require firearms, ammunition, and explosives purchases to be made in person and to require records to be kept of the means by which the purchases are made.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

APRIL 9, 2002
Mr. CROWLEY (for himself, Mr. WEXLER, Mr. GEORGE MILLER of California, Mr. ENGEL, Mr. MORAN of Virginia, Mr. CAPUANO, Mr. MCGOVERN, Mrs. MCCARTHY of New York, Mr. BLAGOJEVICH, Mr. CLAY, and Ms. WOOLSEY) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, to require firearms, ammunition, and explosives purchases to be made in person and to require records to be kept of the means by which the purchases are made.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Electronic Commerce Crime Prevention and Protection Act'.

SEC. 2. REQUIREMENT THAT FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, AND EXPLOSIVES PURCHASES BE MADE IN PERSON; RECORDATION OF THE MEANS BY WHICH THE PURCHASES ARE MADE.


(a) FIREARMS- Section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)--

(A) by striking `and' at the end of subparagraph (B)(ii);

(B) by striking the period at the end of subparagraph (C); and

(C) by adding at the end the following:

`(D) any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the firearm is presented in person by the transferee at the time of the transfer.'; and

(2) in paragraph (4), by inserting `and a detailed description of any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the firearm' before the period.

(b) AMMUNITION-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 922 of such title is amended by inserting after subsection (y) the following:

`(z)(1) It shall be unlawful for a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell ammunition to a person not licensed under this chapter unless any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the ammunition is presented in person by the transferee at the time of the transfer.

`(2) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer who sells ammunition to a person not licensed under this chapter shall include in the record of the transfer a detailed description of any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the ammunition.'.

(2) PENALTIES- Section 924(a)(5) of such title is amended by striking `or (t)' and inserting `, (t), or (z)'.

(c) EXPLOSIVES- Section 842 of such title is amended--

(1) in subsection (f), by inserting `, and a detailed description of any thing of value accepted by the licensee or permittee in exchange for any explosive materials so distributed' before the period at the end of the 1st sentence; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(q) It shall be unlawful for a licensee or permittee knowingly to sell any explosive materials to any transferee who is not a licensee or permittee, unless any thing of value accepted by the licensee or permittee in exchange for the explosive materials is presented in person by the transferee at the time of the transfer.'.
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Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote! - Benjamin Franklin 1759
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Old April 20, 2002, 08:50 AM   #2
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Waxman is a commie loser.:barf:
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Old April 20, 2002, 09:26 AM   #3
Alex Szabo
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My .02...

Here is a letter I just fired off the Rep. Cliff Stearns:

My Dear Congressman Stearns,

I’ve read the proposed amendment to the Title 18 (in the aforementioned subject line) along side its proposed amendments to the language, which now appears before the judicial committee. I would ask that should this proposal arrive at a vote in the general assembly, that it NOT be supported in any fashion or context, as this impetus remains solely a knee-jerk reactionary measure to the current negative political tides.

The only result set that can be derived from such poorly authored legislation is the instantiation and total dismantling of the constitution and to bring the arm of the government into the personal lives of the law abiding citizen by criminalizing current legal transactions in commerce and trade. After all, current criminal elements, which this impetus may purport to address, shall invent newer activities or means by which they would inevitably circumvent this bad piece of legislation [anyway].

I find little solace as a citizen or any justifiable logic or reasoning behind any representative’s impetus of such legislation, in that it would or may become beneficial for the people or by the people -- such as the government’s inventory or easy access thereto of any chattel in the citizen’s possession.

The ultimate driver in the decision of not passing this bad composition is representative and engrained in the oath of office which stipulates “to protect and defend the constitution…”, as no other reasoning may possibly apply. Please vote NAY!
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Old April 20, 2002, 10:21 AM   #4
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I pray to God that this doesn't get far. This will seriously hamper the affordable shooting sports for many people and make many brands of defensive ammo unavailable to the public not to mention hurt business for some of the big ammo sellers mail order and online. These so called representatives are nothing but traitors.
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Old April 20, 2002, 11:13 AM   #5
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Old April 20, 2002, 12:38 PM   #6
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Looks like I'll have to get an HEV for trips to Arizona if this BS passes.
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Old April 21, 2002, 05:18 PM   #7
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Something in my gut tells me that this POS bill has a real chance of passing. Seems like the kind of thing that they will try to slip by in the dead of night, and probably succeed!

So... this means that we REALLY have to get after our congressional representatives on this one, and make sure it DOES NOT HAPPEN!!!

I would also suggest that we write the House Majority Leader (Dick Armey), and the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (F. James Sensenbrenner. Jr.), and urge them to kill this piece of legislation before it ever comes to a vote.

-Congressman / House Majority Leader Dick Armey
301 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-4326
&
9901 East Valley Ranch Parkway
Suite 3050
Irving, TX. 75063

-Congressman / Chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary F. James Sensenbrenner. Jr.
2332 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-4909
&
2138 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
(Address of the Chairman's office, separate from his regular office above).

Time to fire up those word processing programs, and lick some stamps folks.

This ain't no hobby, its a war!!!
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Old April 22, 2002, 11:54 AM   #8
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BTT
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Old April 22, 2002, 06:55 PM   #9
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Link to the bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.04101:

The bill's current status is that it has been referred to the House Judiciary committee.

Also, there are 10 cosponsors:

Rep Blagojevich, Rod R. - 4/9/2002
Rep Capuano, Michael E. - 4/9/2002
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 4/9/2002
Rep Engel, Eliot L. - 4/9/2002
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn - 4/9/2002
Rep McGovern, James P. - 4/9/2002
Rep Miller, George - 4/9/2002
Rep Moran, James P. - 4/9/2002
Rep Wexler, Robert - 4/9/2002
Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. - 4/9/2002
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Old April 22, 2002, 11:14 PM   #10
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URAAGGGHHHH!!!

These communistnazi gun grabbers and Constitution haters just make my blood boil. I will light the Fax lines up tomorow.
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Old April 23, 2002, 10:01 AM   #11
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I wouldn't get too worked up about it. This is just "red meat" for all of the little socialists who vote for these idiots since this is an
election year.

Yanus
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Old April 23, 2002, 11:27 AM   #12
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Yanus, it still wouldn't be a bad idea to get vocal about this. If nothing else, it would let your representatives know what your stance is on such issues.

Thanks for posting your letter Alex. I was trying to come up with the wording to mail my congressman.

What I am perplexed about is that I cannot find anything related to this on either the GOA or NRA websites.
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Old April 23, 2002, 11:44 AM   #13
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These idjits had something very similar 'way back = GCA '68.

Even buying a single .22 short cartridge, you'd get to slap down yer driver's license & get the entire transaction recorded in a l'il book. The book got bigger & bigger w/no appreciable effect (duh!) re crime.

Buttsheads're gonna one day walk up against one mentioned in Liz Michael's treatise ....
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Old April 23, 2002, 03:18 PM   #14
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Well here is the letter that I wrote to my Rep. Feel free to mix, match, cut, paste, and generally adapt my letter to suit your needs.

Dear Congressperson Lowey,

I would like to bring to your attention, and strongly urge you to oppose H.R. 4101 (a proposed amendment to title 18 U.S.C.), which would require all ammunition purchases to be made in person, and would require that records be kept of all ammunition sales to private citizens.

While I imagine that this bill was authored with good intentions, I feel obligated to point out that if passed, it will also carry with it unintended consequences that will adversely effect every American gun owner.

If passed…

-This bill will seriously hamper the affordability of the shooting sports for most Americans. This in turn will negatively effect the general level of proficiency and familiarity with the safe usage of firearms, for both aspects are ingrained and reinforced through extensive practice. In short, more expensive ammunition = less range time = less safe usage and knowledge of firearms.

- This bill will seriously limit the availability of ammunition for law abiding people who do not live in close proximity to licensed gun dealers, or ammunition sellers.

-This bill will put out of business most reputable ammunition retailers who do business by mail order. This will result in more unemployed Americans, and in a further weakening of our nations precarious economy.

- Lastly, this bill constitutes yet another infringement of that which "…shall not be infringed." Americans have the right to keep and bear arms free from government interference.

Thus, I once again urge you to stand against H.R. 4101 should it come up for a vote.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your reply.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old April 23, 2002, 04:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
While I imagine that this bill was authored with good intentions
Are you joking or are you nuts?

NY Patriot, I'm sure you're just trying to be polite, but we need to dispense with the "benefit of the doubt" and start attacking the would-be tyrannts for who they are and what they're really doing to this country. Since when is the trampling of our fundamental human rights by our so-called "representative government" considered well intentioned? Would you consider it well intentioned when they enact legislation banning all firearms? Or the inevitable next step: banning you from speaking our against them?
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Old April 23, 2002, 05:26 PM   #16
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I see our current Illinois Democrat candidate for Gov. is the first on the list of co-sponsors. Thought he was going to turn down the anti-gun rhetoric to sell himself in Southern Illinois. Oh well more political ammo to shoot at his election chances with.

Jeff
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Old April 23, 2002, 09:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
NY Patriot, I'm sure you're just trying to be polite
Yes SpyGuy, I was being polite. I fully understand who these people are and what they are really up to.

More flies with honey SpyGuy, you know the routine.

Last edited by NY Patriot; April 23, 2002 at 10:49 PM.
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Old April 23, 2002, 10:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
More flies with honey SpyGuy, you know the routine.
The only problem with that approach is that once you concede that their intentions are good (when, in fact, they are not), you lend false creedance to their arguments. The left uses lies to further their agenda. Do not empower them by accepting their lies, even for the sake of polite discourse.

It's time we called a spade a spade (and a leftist totalitarian a leftist totalitarian).
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Old April 23, 2002, 10:48 PM   #19
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Point taken SpyGuy, but I want my representative to actually give my letter and argument some serious consideration, not write them off as the angry ramblings of a malcontent.
We both know that too many elected officials are just petty tyrants in waiting, but calling them out at this point in time does not serve our purposes IMHO.

But enough about me. Why don't you post a copy of your letter to your Rep., and give us all another approach and set of arguments?
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Old April 24, 2002, 09:56 AM   #20
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To Yanus;

I would have thought the same thing about CFR six months ago. But now its law.

This sure is whacky enough to get the Demorats and their RINO bed-pals to fall in behind it, for the children, to stop terrorism, whatever...

We have to ask our representatives if this proposed legislation is actually based on factual data (presented by the bill sponsors) that mail-order ammo and gun parts are big sources for criminals and terrorists, or is this just more 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' legislation, like the AW ban.

We also need to point out that we can't just keep banning things because someday, somewhere, it might get used for an illegal activity. If that were the case, we would have to ban everything from soda straws to white Ford Broncos. When does it end?

This needs to be fought at the grass roots level. Don't expect 'the industry' to rise up against this one. Local stores like WalMart would see this as an easy way to eliminate competition and drive up prices. I've heard gun store owners who think 'closing the gunshow loophole' is a good idea. Well, of course, this eliminates one of their chief competitors.

I'll be writing my Congressman. His record shows he voted against the AW ban in '94, so he probably will listen.
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Old April 24, 2002, 12:22 PM   #21
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Way to go kidao35!
Let's keep them coming folks. Every letter that a politician receives is assumed to represent the opinion of THOUSANDS of voters!!!

Talk about a cheap and easy force multiplier!!!
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Old April 24, 2002, 02:30 PM   #22
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You read my mind, Jeff. I was just thinking of ways to beat him over the head with this. I don't want Ryan either, and I might end up doing more for Blagojevich than Ryan, but if he becomes governor I want him to have a reputation for anti-gun extremism.
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Old April 24, 2002, 07:08 PM   #23
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Don,
I'm going to go to a friend who has the one last gunshop in town and get a list of his customers. Then I'm going to write a personal letter to everyone of them detailing Blago's record. I know a lot of these people personally and I will word it accordingly. I intend to mail it out just before the election and remind them of how their rights will be curtailed if he's elected.

I used this same tactic against Durbin in his last congressional election and it had a good effect. Unfortunately not enough to turn the tide, but enough that he felt the sting in the area. I mailed out 200 letters that time didn't cost all that much but the big thing was they were read. Coming from me without any slick paper or other markings they didn't get trashed. I received a lot of good comments from people who were gun owners and hunters who were totally unaware of Durbin's record on firearms issues. I think a semi-organized grass roots tactic like that may be more effective then donations to the parties or ISRA.

Jeff
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Old April 25, 2002, 12:18 PM   #24
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Don't let this thread slide in to oblivion guys! It is too important.

Let's see some other examples of letters that we have sent to our Reps.

Give your fellow board members some different arguments and approaches to draw from for their letters!
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Old April 25, 2002, 12:27 PM   #25
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