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Old October 25, 2013, 11:18 AM   #51
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Do you guys feel revolvers are generally more reliable out of the box? I started this thread because I have seen people who have invested their ego into their gun and won't admit to themselves that the gun is flawed.
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Old October 25, 2013, 01:31 PM   #52
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Most high end anything mechanical, cars, boats, CNC machining centers all have break in periods and even at every use you are instructed to run the machine at low speeds and/or loads until the machine comes up to temperature. The internals are so tightly fitted that the thermal expansion of the materials is required to get the intended fit in the design. A tightly fitted firearm needs enough cycles for mating surfaces to "wear in".
As I argued in an earlier post, break-in periods suggested for automobiles and other similar mechanical devices that have "tightly fitted" parts are recommended (though some newer vehicles come with no break-in regimens) in the interest of optimum longevity, not to make them eventually operate as they should. No one I know of would tolerate driving a brand new car for x number of miles before it ran as it should. The same minimum standard should apply to any new firearm "out of the box", imo.
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Old October 25, 2013, 01:48 PM   #53
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Do you guys feel revolvers are generally more reliable out of the box?
In my opinion, yes, although I admittedly can't factually prove it.

That said, revolver malfunctions are generally more severe when they occur; few autoloader malfunctions result in the gun locking up solid, whereas quite a few revolver malfunctions often can. Many semi-auto malfunctions are magazine-related and can be readily alleviated by replacing or repairing the offending magazine(s); this is obviously not a viable option with a revolver.
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Old October 26, 2013, 08:32 AM   #54
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Do you guys feel revolvers are generally more reliable out of the box? I started this thread because I have seen people who have invested their ego into their gun and won't admit to themselves that the gun is flawed.
Bought a S&W JM 625 in February. After 300 rounds, it would light strike the primers and I would intermittently get a failure to fire. Problem? The strain screw backed out on the main spring. Took it home, took off the grips, tightened the strain screw. Next week - same thing. Took it home redid the strain screw again, this time with blue Loctite. Why not Loctite the screw at the factory?

The 625 also had a bad crown from the factory, to the point the gunsmith laughed out loud at it and said, "That's the worst factory crown I've ever seen." Had him re-crown the barrel, correct the timing, chamfer the cylinders/extractors, and tweak the trigger - now it works like it should have from the factory. Great gun, love it, just wish the manufacturer cared as much about doing it "right" as I do.

Bought a S&W .460 XVR. Crown was okay, timing okay, cylinder needed chamfering and shimming; and the trigger absolutely sucked so badly that I could not measure the double action pull with a Lyman trigger gage because it maxed out the gage. Took that to the gunsmith and had him fix it. Put Loctite on the strain screw BEFORE I took it out for the first time...fool me twice on the JM 625...not on this one..!

Bought a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, everything was okay except the trigger - had the gunsmith fix that.

As for semi-autos, I think people interpret some manufacturers instructions as being a "break-in." As an example, Les Baer says to fire 500 rounds without cleaning the gun. I'm not sure that's a "break-in," but only a recommendation on how to use the gun during the first 500 rounds. Not different than the towing limitations for the first 1,000 miles for both of my 2011 pickup trucks - limited to 1,000 pounds and 55 MPH.

If you understand what's going on with the LB 1911 and the 500 rounds - it makes sense. LB is using the "crud" that is suspended in the lubrication to lap the frame and slide together. Has nothing to do with gun reliability, but how smoothly it functions.

The letter I got with my full custom 1911 recommended much the same procedure, and the gunsmith had already fired 200 rounds through it before sending it to me - but still recommended not cleaning the gun and keeping it well lubricated for 500 rounds before cleaning.

Frankly, I find all of the Internet histrionics over having to actually shoot a gun a bit funny as how horrible is that? The first day I owned my Les Baer I shot about 1,000 rounds through it because I was having so much fun.

I shoot a minimum of 300 rounds through any gun I get the first time I take it to the range.

Never had a gun that didn't work out of the box, but the JM 625 was close with the strain screw problem.
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Old October 26, 2013, 08:41 AM   #55
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Frankly, I find all of the Internet histrionics over having to actually shoot a gun a bit funny as how horrible is that?
I don't think anyone is saying that shooting a gun is horrible; they're saying that trying to shoot a new gun that won't shoot is not funny.
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Old October 26, 2013, 09:11 AM   #56
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All guns should work out of the box. Period.

If it doesn't, it's going back. How much I like it will dictate whether I'll keep or sell it when it does get back.

I have had problems with nearly every brand of gun out of the box, including the PERFECT blOcK.

What I perceive as a "break in" period for a 1911 is the time it takes from when the gun feels rough (slide action, trigger feel and break) to when it feels buttery smooth. If a 1911 doesn't work, it's going back.
OK, so not all plastic guns are bad
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Old October 26, 2013, 11:53 PM   #57
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"A big "if" as I see it. If the gun doesn't function correctly after the recommended/required break-in period involving the expenditure of anywhere from between 200 to 500 rounds or so, you are now back to square one and you have a problem. When the gun is returned from the factory/gunsmith "fixed", are you required to go through another break-in procedure?"

Excellent points above. I guess whether a person has to go through another break-in procedure depends on what exactly was repaired. For example, a new slide would require more rounds than a new extractor.

Hypothetically, if you get a couple or so jams between rounds 3 and 5 hundred, how many more rounds should be put through it before the owner calls it GTG? What is the chance a gun will smooth out in this example Anyone?

My opinion is a 500 round break-in before you send it back is to dissuade a person from sending it back, and also the factory hoping it will smooth out with hundreds of rounds though it.
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Old November 10, 2013, 01:16 PM   #58
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Plastic vs. metal

In my limited experience, poly framed guns don't need a break-in but metal framed guns do.
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Old November 12, 2013, 11:58 PM   #59
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Out of the box ready? Yes, its a MUST.

This is my test:
when I buy the handgun at the LGS, I take it straight to the range with no lubing or cleaning. I inspect if first of course, but if it malfunctions out of the box, who knows when it will malfunction again.

Get it home, clean/lube it, and put it away in a holster or case. A few handguns have easily passed it including M&P's, Glock's, and XD's. Others like Keltec's not so much...

With guns, I don't believe in "break-in periods". It ain't a car. I need a defensive weapon to save my life.

Now a plinking gun like a 22 is different story.
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Old November 13, 2013, 09:09 AM   #60
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Frankly, I find all of the Internet histrionics over having to actually shoot a gun a bit funny as how horrible is that? The first day I owned my Les Baer I shot about 1,000 rounds through it because I was having so much fun.
^This +1000

For 500 rounds you get to have your cake and eat it too, why does anyone complain about this?

Not that I don't somewhat enjoy cleaning my guns, but for the first range trip or two I can definitely find something I'd rather do when I get home.
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Old November 15, 2013, 04:34 AM   #61
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I only own eight handguns and five of them were purchased new. With the five new ones I immediately stripped them and cleaned them. They all ran flawlessly from the get go. Maybe I was just lucky. For me a new handgun should not require break-in if if it is thoroughly cleaned and lubed before being shot.

I also lied. One of my pistols(a CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical) I shot straight out of the box and I had zero jams, FTE's or FTF's.
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Old November 16, 2013, 10:12 PM   #62
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Depends on the gun----while most are functional, they don't meet my standards

Ruger MkIII's need the mag disconnect and LCI removed---I've already bought parts in anticipation of my next one.

Glocks need their sights replaced--can't stand the plastic sights

Bolt action rifles don't come with sights anymore(generally)--so you'll be buying a scope and rings and bases.

Cheap shotgun?--you'll need extra choke tubes and probably a recoil pad

10/22's need trigger work to bring the 9lb factory trigger down to livable

These are all fixes I can do myself---generally for cheap

See what I mean?
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Old November 17, 2013, 12:44 PM   #63
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Recently been bitten by the CZ bug, bought two, both have been flawless in function and reliability department and I really like them, only problem, I can't shoot the damn things with the same level of accuracy I get from all my other guns (even my Kahr P9) I've tried several different reload recipes with little improvements.
Keep in mind both pistols shoot "minute of bad guy", they are just not bulls eye worthy, so for their intended purpose one can't complain or call them defective. I've decided the culprit is related to the trigger pull and me. As a result I have contacted CZ custom shop for a quote on an accuracy and trigger tune.
My point here is that I want more than what a stock pistol will deliver and for me it's worth the extra investment to get tiny groups.
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Old November 17, 2013, 02:46 PM   #64
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In the last several years, I have purchased several Sigs, Smith and Wessons, Glocks, Rugers, CZs and Dan Wessons. The only gun I really had an issue with was a Ruger 22-45. The other guns run fine. The issue I had with a Sig P220 was unusual barrel wear that was repaired under warranty and one Smith and Wesson that had instructions to replace the recoil spring with the closed end forward that cause a major malfunction. I did have a Ruger with an improperly tensioned extractor. The two I have now have had no malfunctions.

I just received a Springfield Loaded M1911-A1 9mm that has run 200 rounds down range with no problems.

To be honest, I am more than happy with the quality of firearms I have purchased.

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Old November 17, 2013, 05:40 PM   #65
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Tight tolerances have nothing to do with how a gun works or not. In this particular case, the OP is actually dealing with tight expectations.

Can the makers afford to run 50, no, 500 rounds thru their guns before they ship them? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY KIDDING?

How would that affect the price of an automobile? 5,000 miles is normal for getting it broke in, that's going take about 110 hours at an average speed of 45mph (speed has to vary, in town and highway) times $15 an hour for a driver to follow the protocol, = $1,666, plus fuel at $2.80 gal @ 22 mpg = $227. Add it all up, you get a surcharge of $1893 a car.

Gun? 500 rounds at $.50 @ bulk rate = $250, plus the time to change about 40 mags and shoot them without burning up the barrel, at the same $15 an hour = $265 a gun minimum. That's the price of an LCP.

No, you aren't going to pay for the privilege of buying a used gun that is ready out of the box. Pure internet fantasy. And some other unkind comparisons to post digested carbohydrates from livestock. It's completely unrealistic.

So, the makers should spend more time in development to get all those finicky tolerances down to a fair the well? Nope, the product development cycle is now been pushed from the years it took formerly to just months. Take the P938 for example. The P238 was a functioning gun on the market, but no, .380 has started to fall off in sales, the trend is to go to 9mm CCW guns like the ultra compact .45's.

In business, you either lead, follow, or get out of the way. SIG jumped in, rescaled the gun, and put it on the market. They were responding to OUR buying habits, WE are moving from new gun to new gun in literal months now, not years like the transition from .45 1911 to 9mm combat doublestacks. You snooze, you lose. Our own competitive buying habits to have the latest greatest gun of the month means the makers have shortened cycles to make a gun or forgeddaboutit. Kel Tec is a small player with a pretty loyal customer base that can tolerate a 1st Gen gun and beta testing it.

Us? Not freaking likely, we are the Me Generation and we don't tolerate being anyone's test staff. It's embarrassing on the range when our gun locks up, hey, we spent good money and by golly we intend to impress our buddies.

None of this existed to the degree I read about it now on the internet. In part, it's that, and also the current mindset of the generation now buying guns. Look and the width and breadth of the product offering these days. Hard to sustain introducing a new gun every two or three years, and that was amazing ten years ago.

Things have changed - if you want ready out of the box, don't buy new. Wait for the end of the second year of production, then you get it. You can't be have the new gun on the block and expect it, it's unrealistic.
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Old November 20, 2013, 05:18 PM   #66
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comin' in sideways

I have always expected issues with any gun I've bought, so I am pleasantly suprised when nothing goes wrong.

Makes me happy.

But I have sent numerous pistols to numerous professionals to make them better, for me.
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Old November 22, 2013, 07:17 AM   #67
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Not trying to defend some gun manufacturers but sometimes it seems they build their guns to work with a certain type/power level/brand of ammo. I've got one like that where they specifically tell you in the owners manual something along those lines, use this ammo and you'll be fine. The guns runs flawlessly with that ammo, however when you go to cheaper ammo the gun jams. If you go with ammo that is comparable in terms of price/performance/quality of the recommended ammo the gun runs without issue. For some that is a major issue and I can kind of see their side of it.

With that said, if you are using quality ammo, the gun has been cleaned and lubricated then there should be nothing preventing it from functioning properly. I can see break in periods, however that does not mean that the gun should not work right until some magic number of shots have been fired through it. How acceptable would that be if you bought a car and were told it wouldn't always make left turns properly until you've driven 200 miles? I guess I view break in periods more like once you hit this mark everything will be performing optimally, not you need to hit at least this many to grind away/smooth out our manufacturing defects.

I've been lucky enough to have every gun I've bought work like a champ right out of the box which is why I keep going back to the same brands.
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Old November 23, 2013, 12:48 PM   #68
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Semi auto pistols are a balancing act. Lots of factors need to be within a relatively narrow range in order for the gun to function properly.

We all want a gun that is 100% reliable with everything, bullseye accurate, lasts forever, and is dirt cheap. The real world, however, has its own ideas.

When you say "out of the box ready" one assumes you mean "no issues at all, ever". It is certainly nice when you get that, but NO ONE can KNOW if ANY new gun will do that, until it is demonstrated by shooting.

A "break in" period of 200 or 500 rounds is just a number, but one with some benefits. Since the introduction of semi auto pistols, no recognized authority has advocated full trust and confidence in the gun until it has been shot some, and for good reason.

Even today, with the makes and models that have the highest reputations for reliability, it is always recommended that you shoot "at least" a couple boxes of the ammo you plan to carry, before placing full faith and confidence in the combination.

You can have a 20 year old gun, with 10,000 flawless rounds through it, and you will still be told to "test" a new brand/style of bullet, for feeding, etc. before trusting your life to it.

There is also a difference between a gun that has a couple of bobbles in say the first 500 rnds and one that consistently fails to operate correctly.

Some people do have unrealistic expectations. For them, I suggest weight lifting, mediation, or any of the other traditional methods for dealing with stress and reaching nirvana.

If you get a new gun, and it has 2 failures to fully go into battery in the first 200 rnds, do you send it back? I wouldn't. If it did it every magazine, or every other, I would.

One of the things about a break in period, is that the maker can (hopefully) reduce the amount of functional guns being returned simply because the owner thought there was a problem when there really wasn't.

Remember that maker has absolutely no control over what you are doing. I have, all too often, seen people spend big bucks on a gun, and then feed it the cheapest crap they can find. Also not following proper maint procedures is common. And they seldom blame the crap ammo, or their own lack of proper care, the problem is always the gun....

How about the people who are "limp wristing"? Is their gun defective? (call it what you want, and argue about it all you want, but it is an observed fact that in some people's hands, otherwise fully functional guns malfunction)

Another purpose of the "break in period" (and this applies to cars, as well) is to give the shooter/driver some time to get used to the specific manner in which the machinery operates, before using it full out.

In over 40 years of owning and shooting handguns, I can count the number of autos I bought new in the box on one hand. The only one of those that had any issues turned out to be something I was doing, not something wrong with the gun.

Now, maybe the factories today are churning out underfinished crap to make a buck, and leaving it up to the consumer to finish the process of getting them to run right. I can't say. Should they be doing that? I wouldn't think so, but if that is the cost of staying in business, what do you think your expectations of perfection are going to change?
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old November 24, 2013, 09:10 AM   #69
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I have a Glock 22, Glock 26 and a Walther PPS that, outside of cleaning after purchase, have been 100%. My personal experience with the 1911 platform (Colt) is just the reverse.It refused to run reliably regardless of ammo (factory) mags (Colt and other primo names) until I finally sold it.
Somebody explain to me why I have to spend a 1000+ dollars (or more) on a 1911 pistol and then spend the extra $$$$$$ to get the right mags and $$$$$to get the right ammo, and then send it to a gunsmith or back to the factory to make it right. I had a S&W 44 mag that would lock up on occasion while shooting standard loads. Both of these went away. I will not keep any firearm that is not reliable. If it is ammo related or shooter related that falls on me.
My Glock's on the other hand required nothing more than a quick clean and have functioned 100% regardless of ammo type and cost less than half of a 1911.
Sorry to start on a rant because I like the 1911 platform, but IMHO the cost to get one that runs outweighs the value to me as a pistol I can rely on. Then factor the cost of 'break in' and the 1911, even the ones that can cost $3000 or more, that may still no be reliable and I will stick with my ugly Glock's and my prime carry piece, the Walther PPS 9MM.
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