The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 13, 2001, 03:55 AM   #1
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: Erie, PA
Posts: 236
I was thumbing through a book on defensive flashlight tactics, and the author(I can't remember who wrote it) mentions the carotid restraint hold, and that it constitutes deadly force, but refuses to explain its execution, since he believes that it is too powerful and too easy to misuse for him to teach civilians how to perform it.

How do you TFL'ers feel about holding back information about what a particular move is, or how to use it? Should hand-to-hand techniques only be acquired through a trainer's care? Should this information be available to everyone? Should things like the CRH only be taught to law enforcement officers, or should anyone who has a Mag-Lite be informed on this particular use for the thing?
PaladinVC is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 05:09 AM   #2
Staff Emeritus
Join Date: September 15, 1999
Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 4,194
Hmm. Is a Carotid Restraint Hold similar to a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint?

As far as 'only' being taught to Law Enforcement, a pentjat silat, arnis/kali/escrima or a basic stickgrappling course will teach you more ways of choking someone out with a stick than your basic LEO will ever hear of.

A course of Kodakan judo, Brazilian jiu jitsu or similar grappling will teach you the same thing with bare arm chokes.

I think there are more than a few trainers who will teach an easily mis-applied move in class to their students, but who will refuse to teach it via a tape or book, and I think I can understand why.

I feel that the teacher (sensei, sifu, guro, maitre, Grand High Poobah) has the right to teach (or withold) any technique or student he (or she) wishes.

"The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer."
--The 13th Warrior

Bona na Croin

The LawDog Files
LawDog is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 06:02 AM   #3
Join Date: February 2, 2001
Posts: 41
Blood clots

Death rate and or injury has been very high. Main problem is blood clotting when blood supply is stopped in artery thus causing stroke or heart attack which is often fatal. Blood clots from Protein K and C factors. The source was pro-wrestling who found it was a good stage prop and known as a "sleeper hold." Trying to apply it properly in the heat of physical contact is not only difficult but risky at best. It's one of those things that sounded good at the time.
Battleaxe is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 08:31 AM   #4
Al Norris
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,546
The hold used to be taught in Boot Camp. It is extremely effective. When used properly, it will render the subject unconscious within a couple of seconds. It will kill the subject after a few seconds more, which of course, was the point of the lesson. When used improperly, you will either kill the subject or get yourself killed, depending.

Obviously (to me), this is a last ditch option.

Al Norris is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 09:10 AM   #5
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,069
I agree with the spirit of which the other posts imply. I think the author is trying to protect himself against possible lawsuit.

The most potent strangle hold I was every taught was called the "Japanese strangle hold". It was one of those kind of manuevers that once applied very few people could get out of before they passed out.

It has the potential to be very lethal in the hands of the untrained.
gryphon is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 06:42 PM   #6
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2000
Location: Michigan
Posts: 477
As an instructor (PPCT - 8 years) I find no problem witholding a technique under the circumstances PaladinVC outlined. The instructor could get himself sued for a number of things by publishing a description of a technique that needs to be done "hands on." A vascular neck restraint is very touchy feeley, and it is very easy to screw up. Such screw ups can easily lead to death.

If an instructor wants to restrict certain information to LEO's only, that is his perogative. Look around, though, and you will probably find someone else who is willing to take your money to teach you the same thing. You may even find someone irresponsible enough to "teach" you in a magazine.
IamNOTaNUT is offline  
Old May 13, 2001, 11:47 PM   #7
Jay Baker
Senior Member
Join Date: March 26, 2000
Location: S.W. Idaho
Posts: 1,294
If you can't choke 'em, smoke 'em.

Jay Baker is offline  
Old May 14, 2001, 06:12 PM   #8
Junior Member
Join Date: May 14, 2001
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2
Carotid Restraint Hold

I was a Cop in the SF Bay Area during the inception of the use of the drug PCP. The carotid restraint was one of the few non-lethal ways to subdue a person under the influence of PCP. I've personally applied it well over 100 times, and department wide that would translate to tens of thousands of times. We never, to my knowledge, had a death or serious injury as a result of this restraint. If properly applied, and not held for to long a period of time, we found it a perfectly safe restraint.

JerryK is offline  
Old May 14, 2001, 06:28 PM   #9
Junior member
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
The book was probably written by the same person that perfected the technique and teach's it to police officers, Jim Lindell.
Mr. Lindell, as those whom know him refer to him, was one of my instructors and I was given the honor of being one of his assistant instructors in the KC Regional Police Academy long ago.
It is not a technique one would wish to teach someone who just happens to be thumbing though a book.
Gunslinger is offline  
Old May 15, 2001, 06:52 AM   #10
Danger Dave
Senior Member
Join Date: April 21, 1999
Location: Dallas, GA, USA
Posts: 791
Arterial chokes are much, much safer (and faster acting) than tracheal chokes - and a lot of other ways of inducing unconsciousness.

Arterial chokes are legal in Judo competition, as well as some other grappling sports. Literally dozens - if not hundreds - of people choked out with these on a daily basis worldwide. Aside from the risks of maintaining the hold too long (beyond unconsciousness), the risks of using an arterial choke are probably less than the risks associated with hitting them in the legs with club, or pepper spray, or a stun gun. And they're certainly lower than inducing unconsciouness with blunt trauma (like a fist). Under the wrong circumstances, all of them can be fatal.

But it is important to do the choke properly - if you shift just a little, it becomes a tracheal choke, or a combination choke. The problem with a tracheal choke is that you can do damage to the windpipe - crushing it, or causing swelling that closes off the trachea. Results can be fatal, even if the hold is broken quickly.
Danger Dave is offline  
Old May 15, 2001, 08:13 AM   #11
Junior member
Join Date: January 5, 1999
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 2,105
I think you hit the nail on the head Eric. When done "correctly". It would be difficult to teach it correctly in print. Much less insure that the "student" learned it properly or would apply it properly.
Gunslinger is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08080 seconds with 9 queries