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Old April 18, 2013, 11:05 AM   #26
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Bottom Line: Laws only effect the people who follow them. Criminals will always be armed, and new laws (particularly in NY) are only serving to limit the law abiding citizens' ability to protect themselves.
you're also making a very large assumption that there are no criminals among those of us that have legally acquired guns. what about the gun owner who has committed no crime their entire life but then goes and shoots someone out of anger? does that make him/her mentally unstable and would that person have any record of mental illness? No, they wouldn't.

the current political climate surrounding gun control has brought out a lot of anger in the gun community. you could probably go to any gun forum and find someone who proposes inciting a revolution of some sort. I mean look at some of the BS that Ted Nugent throws out. it might be rhetoric but it's dangerous rhetoric.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:18 AM   #27
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On the fence about gun rights.

Spare the rod and spoil the child. This i feel is part of whats wrong with society today. Consequences for ones actions are the best deterrent.
The gun laws already in place need to be enforced. Period!!
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:19 AM   #28
Come and take it.
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No person should be denied their right to keep and bear arms without a conviction of a crime or a criminal case where the judge ruled the defendant was mentally defective.

When you start slinging around the idea that a mental case should not have a gun it is a dangerous thing for the American people. There are a lot of mentally ill people out there who are less likely to harm someone than people who are not mentally ill or refuse treatment even though they are.

For instance I have yet to see a sociopath/psychopath to seek treatment for their illness without first being ordered by a court to do so.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:19 AM   #29
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Dangerous rhetoric has its place.

If it did not, we would never have heard of Sam Adams or Thomas Payne, and we would probably still be paying taxes to a king.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:22 AM   #30
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I used to believe that gun control was for the better good of this country. I used to think that people were safer with strict laws. I used to think that only people who wanted to do bad things had guns.

Until I bought my first gun, started doing research, and then bought another. And another. What tipped me from one side of the coin to the other was discovering the proof for myself via fatality rates from the bureau of vital statistics. I was able to see for myself how fatality rates declined as gun ownership went up over the decades. I was also able to see the fallacy of the often quoted stats about how much more likely a person is to have their own gun used against them, or to be shot/killed by someone they know.

After learning that the antigun groups lie blatantly to support their cause, compared to the pro-2nd Amendment groups who use truth rather than emotion, it was easy to change my own mind.
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:27 AM   #31
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I think that universal background checks could be a good idea, of course it wont stop all gun crime, but if it could stop a few mentally unstable, or stop some people who shouldn't guns from doing so.
How is it anyone even thinks this is a possibility. It is mind boggling.

Criminals buy guns from other criminals all the time. Because thieves break into homes and gun shops all the time and steal them to sell them.

You propose this might stop a few, some, maybe one unstable person from getting their hands on a gun.

The people who think this will prevent some criminal from getting a gun at a gun show are living the same dream.

I'll propose an idea and see what you think.

Criminal/mental person goes to a gun show and can't buy a gun. He had money to buy one gun, but he can't.

But he does really want a gun, how is he going to get it. He ponders this as he leaves the gun show, hmmm, so many lucky people leaving with new guns ... Oh, man that guy has three guns.

I know, I'll just take his guns if I can. I'll follow him and see where he goes.

I am in luck, he stopped for lunch at Denny's. I use the tire iron from my car and now I have three new guns. I only had the money to buy one, but now I have three. My lucky day.

Laws do not prevent anything, ever. You really must understand this concept. Laws guide the law abiding and serve as a basis for punishing the law breaker. The mentally ill just do whatever is in their heads and we are suppose to recognize them and get them the help they need.

You should not expect a law to do something it can't do.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:36 AM   #32
Baba Louie
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Hopefully you will soon interject some comments to the responses so this is not a driveby post/thread... hope hope hope. You are getting some good input methinks.

Isn't that fence getting kinda uncomfortable?
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:45 AM   #33
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Prevention of crime = impossible
Defense in the face of crime = possible

We need to stop working on impossible things and work on possible things.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:00 PM   #34
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Smartperson won't be rejoining the discussion, so I'm going to go ahead and close this. Thanks to all those who made it a polite and informative thread.
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:00 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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Originally Posted by Baba Louie
Hopefully you will soon interject some comments to the responses so this is not a driveby post/thread... hope hope hope. You are getting some good input methinks.

Isn't that fence getting kinda uncomfortable?
Alas, as many suspected from the first post, "smartperson" has been confirmed as a troll and will not be back to discuss these points.

Even so, he/she has unintentionally created a valuable thread, and perhaps real "fence-sitters" will learn from it.

Plus, anyone watching can plainly see the reasoned and informed opinions expressed here versus the dishonesty, "troll" tactics and idiocy employed by the other side.
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The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
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He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; April 18, 2013 at 12:25 PM.
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