The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 19, 2013, 09:45 AM   #1
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,144
Organized crime the reason for high crime and death rates in pro-GC states?

Had someone offer this excuse to why cities such as Chicago, New York, LA, New Jersey etc. all have higher crime rates than say Houston, San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Phoenix is because there is more organized crime in the pro GC cities.

While I cannot vouch for cities in Texas and Utah, I know that Arizona has trouble with the cartels, smugglers of both narcotics and humans among other things. So the whole "That's why crime is higher in Pro gun states" is due to the mafia or whatever have you doesn't seem to have a very solid stance from what I know at least in AZ.

Anyone care to comment in regards to this who are from the major cities in pro-gun control states?

I'm sure what this individual says does play a factor into higher crime rates, but I doubt it's the only reason for such states to have higher homicides and so on.
Kimio is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 10:03 AM   #2
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 3,302
That reminds me of this article:

"America Doesn't have a Gun Problem, It Has a Gang Problem"
“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner)
“Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum)
“It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)
tyme is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 10:18 AM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Western Colorado, finally.
Posts: 19,118
I would wonder why the person making that argument doesn't make the obvious connection that the bans/laws/restrictions obviously aren't working. Does it somehow matter what kind of criminal is using the guns, disobeying the laws?

Lots of gun control...

Lots of gun violence...

It's almost like the criminals aren't obeying the laws....

Therefore, the laws are effecting who?...

Law-abiding citizens....

Therefore, the laws are not effecting crime...

What's the point, then?
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 10:33 AM   #4
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,170
The problem is and has always been a crime problem rather than a gun problem. The vast majority of violent criminals are repeat offenders and such has been the case for many years. The fact that background checks have become necessary demonstrates, IMHO, that we as a society have failed to properly address the issue of violent crime. If someone is so violent and dangerous that said person cannot be trusted with a firearm, why on earth are we letting them mingle with the rest of society? In my view, a person who poses a danger to society has no place in society and should either remain locked up or, if their crime is severe enough, be executed. The only effective way to do something about violent crime is to adequately punish the violent criminals.
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 10:44 AM   #5
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,144
This might be a little off topic, but this post from the guy I debated a while back just nauseates me

He doesn't see the problem with the NYC law, and such, to provide some context to this post of his, I had pointed out that the laws punish the law abiding, a criminal would not go through the hassel of trying to purchase a firearm legitimately if it's simply easier to buy off of the black market or steal it.

"I would argue it's not easier to make black market connections or break into someone's home rather than act like a normal person for a day in order to buy a gun face to face with someone. It's not like every potentially violent criminal is going to have a teardrop tattoo and a prison jumpsuit, and even if they were mentally unstable enough to do violent crime, you average joe would never be able to tell that because it's even very hard for psychiatrists to do that (which is why most psychologists and psychiatrists don't want the gun control debate to go over to mental health; it's nearly impossible to figure out who is going to do violent things, the mental health examiners are afraid of being liable for not being able to figure out who was going to start shooting, and once people know their mental health provider is reporting to the state they aren't going to keep coming)."

He's making the assumption that criminals and the like are not on record or that the basket case is going to easily be able to purchase one legitimately. Granted the latter may hold some water due to the way the system works right now, but really, this is naive at best.
Kimio is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 11:40 AM   #6
sam colt
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: nc
Posts: 93
The Crime rate is high because the "laws" they create are simply kneejerk reactions that really do not address the probem. They are feel good laws so they can say "see we did something". Consider this, besides being "gun free" zones, schools are also "DRUG FREE" zones. Hell the street in front of my house is a drug free zone. Drugs are illegal. Besides if you want to score some good weed,or the newest drug where is the best place to go? How about your local high school. They have got just about anything you could want.
sam colt is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 12:13 PM   #7
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2002
Posts: 143
As a mental exercise try turning it around and wonder if there is more gun control in states with more organized crime because GC can benefit a criminal organization.

Think about it. Gun control means there is now a black market for guns meaning oportunities for a criminal organization to smuggle and sell guns. It also means regular citizens cannot resist a criminal organization's activities effectively. Gun control laws do not seem to be enforced on criminals that often, yet are used on the law abiding frequently.

It is well known that organized crime has influence over politicians in the areas where they are entrenched. Is it possible that they support if even minimally gun control laws for their own benefit?


TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!
Aikibiker is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 03:24 PM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Western Colorado, finally.
Posts: 19,118
The first firearms law in NY State, the 1911 Sullivan Law, was undeniably and directly for the purpose of assisting organized crime.
The mafia couldn't shakedown armed immigrants so they got their buddy Timothy Sullivan (a notoriously corrupt politician, even in already notoriously corrupt Tammany Hall) to make a bill that would disarm anyone except criminals.

It worked then and it works now.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 19, 2013, 08:12 PM   #9
Senior Member
Join Date: August 10, 2002
Posts: 2,054
Our community is six hours west of Chicago......conservative farming/family values. In recent years Chicago began exporting their low income crime prone citizenry all over the mid west. Our town suddenly had the distinction of being known as a murder capital after several high profile killings from former Chicago residents. At one time folks left their homes unlocked and trusted the everyone is packing because cities like Chicago exported the criminal scum. Local County attorney told me that Cook County wouldn't prosecute the criminals, just a catch and release program. BY the time they reached our area, it was a way of life where they never experienced punishment for their actions.
Rembrandt is offline  
Old January 20, 2013, 05:08 PM   #10
Senior Member
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: AoW Land, USA
Posts: 1,968
I see what happens in Newark NJ related to GSW. Most people who get shot seem to be in gangs and doing the most dangerous thing a person can do in Newark, which is "standing on the corner minding my own business". Access to guns have nothing to do with the vast majority of violence within this area, but a culture of violence and gangs.
Dead [Black Ops]
Dead is offline  
Old January 20, 2013, 08:43 PM   #11
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 10,317
That reminds me of this article:

"America Doesn't have a Gun Problem, It Has a Gang Problem"
Definitely worth reading and sharing.
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06900 seconds with 9 queries