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Old January 7, 2013, 08:54 PM   #51
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What is the average legal bill for a defendant charged with murder or manslaugher?

Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:29 PM   #52
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Any where from zero, if you have a public defender, to hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you have the money, more is better. I would rather have a public defender than a second or third tier criminal defense attorney. the best criminal defense attorneys/firms cost a bundle. One good thing about homeowners insurance is that it might provide a really good law firm to defend you if you have a civil suit filed against you depending on your coverage. And better yet, pay for all the expert witness costs.

"...your chance of victory was about 60%. I suspect that's civil court rather than criminal court."

Criminal conviction rates are very high. The State wins about 80% of the time, but in a self-defense shooting, I would think the rate would be lower, especially where people are pro self-defense. Depends on the state and the crime:

Last edited by jmortimer; January 7, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old January 8, 2013, 10:58 PM   #53
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Ignoring the legalities for a moment, I agree with those posters who suggest choosing a proven man-stopping cartridge for self-defense. And barring that, choose a proven bullet for a self defense round. Loading up your zero's to hot velocities that replicate a good SD load is one thing, actually depending on the bullet to expand and perform is another.

There are better choices.

Nothing against Zero. I have used their bullets before and would gladly use them again.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:30 PM   #54
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Zero,Montana Gold and Precision Delta JHP's all make for great target loads. Buy some Gold Dots, XTP's or Nosler JHP's to load up SD/HD loads.
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Old January 13, 2013, 01:09 PM   #55
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Have you had a chance to shoot these yet?
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Old January 14, 2013, 10:26 PM   #56
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I did shoot a few to chronograph. The 125gr Zero loaded with 6.4gr Power Pistol averaged 1178 fps over 5 shots. Moving up to 6.7gr only gave me 1198 fps average so I didn't chance going any higher. I haven't shot any into wet phonebooks but I did shoot a few into some old textbooks (dry) just to see if the jacket would stay on...and it did. I shot some Hornady 124gr XTP as well just to compare and the expansion results were very similar although the Zero reloads penetrated about 30% more.

I'm plan on doing some proper testing and documenting the results as soon as I can but the weather hasn't permitted anything for a couple of weeks. I want to pick up a few Speer GDHP and I may test against some factory Hydroshocks as well.
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Old January 15, 2013, 08:57 AM   #57
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I find this thread interesting as I'm soon conducting a Handgun Familiarization Course for several older ladies who've asked me to do so. I've gathered some legal information to point them in the right direction; it mainly says to find out what lawyers in our area have experience in personal defense issues with guns. Those professionals are probably best to get legal advice from.

Meanwhile, back to ammo. One thing among many is important in a gunfight at midnight in full fright of the person protecting themselves and others. The amount of muzzle flash can be a detriment. Using ammo with flash supressed powder is probably a good idea. Buffalo Bore ammo's among the best for this. And they've got quite a selection, too. I have some in 9mm, .38 Spcl. and .357 Mag. for my three sidearms. Some powders canistered for reloading have less flash, but I think factory ammo's best for combat.

Another thing about cartridge selection and ammo, whatever lets one do well in the "numbers" game, use it. Hits are what counts, misses are worthless. The "numbers" game is simple; if you've got 6 rounds in your revolver, that's 6 shots in 6 seconds at 6 yards inside 6 inches. If you've got a semiauto with 12 rounds, then replace all the 6's with 12's. Scoring 70% in this scenario is decent. My deputy sheriff and federal air marshall relatives say this is a good standard to "shoot" for.

This chart's not bad for comparing different ammo for stopping power. New stuff's on the market all the time. And yes, it's subject to opinions just like the folks who supplied the data and put it in this form:

Another interesting thread on stopping power:

I'm going to suggest these ladies go see the movie "Django Unchained" as it fairly realistically shows what happens to folks on the loosing end of a gunfight. It should set their expectations quite well. It would get an academy award for special effects in the "Gunfight Realities" category.
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Last edited by Bart B.; January 15, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
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