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Old July 23, 2012, 07:03 PM   #26
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147gr bullets are also a "recent" innovation. There were no standard 9mm bullet loadings over 124-130gr back in WWII, either. And a WWII era 9mm suppressor would probably be the size and weight of a .308 suppressor today.
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Old July 23, 2012, 07:14 PM   #27
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They did have subsonic 9mm ammo from what I have read.

This is a subsonic load, probably made in about 1944 by Geco. There is a lot of speculation on who it was made for, but no firm knowledge as far as I know. It is distinctive because it is loaded with a 150gr bullet to allow for operation of the weapon with a subsonic bullet. There is also a 7.65mm Browning load with this headstamp and with a similar label (but pasted on a standard commercial Geco 25 round box). The box and headstamp styles make it pretty certain that these are not military loads. There is a subsonic 9mm German load from 1943 by Polte (using 1942 and 1941 made components) and a green case that is a German military load, but the bullet weight is slightly different (9g for the green case and 9.75g for the Geco load).

The green case load is referred to in a classified German document from Sep 1944 as being intended for “Close combat. Ammunition has no muzzle or bullet blast when silencer is used.” This document indicates they have green cases, but a bullet weight of 10g. No specimens meeting this description have been found.

Known loads have lead core bullets, but work was done in 1942 on iron core subsonic ammunition in 9mm including the Wolff bullet with an extended steel tail, green case and a black bullet with a white ring on it. No specimens of this have ever turned up.

You can find photos of some of this material on my website as well as drawings of the Wolff and other earlier experimental German subsonic 9mm P08 cartridges.

So, the spy could have really cool cartridges marked "X" or the cool "green case and black bullet with a white ring on it". :-)
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Old July 23, 2012, 07:15 PM   #28
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To throw more fuel on the fire, let's also not forget the Ballester-Molinas that I believe were used by at least some British agents in WWII. One would possibly have been available to such a character as the author is creating. Quite heavy and bulky compared to a PPK, I know, but historically accurate. And it's a .45, meaning that one could almost certainly have defeated the entire Wehrmacht without changing magazines.
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Old July 23, 2012, 09:10 PM   #29
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Sooo, can we expect to see one of your books on a shelf anytime soon?
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Old July 24, 2012, 10:49 PM   #30
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World War One, German Navy marked, Luger, that fires low noise Ice Bullets effective out to 250 meters. Or if you want about a P-38, with burn marks, off the Hindenburg?
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Old July 25, 2012, 02:27 AM   #31
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Can you confirm that the PPK is an appropriate gun of choice for a WWII British spy
The only problem is that the PPK is closely associated with another literary British spy. For that reason alone I would choose something else. Maybe a Remington Model 51 or an FN 1910.

I don't think I would have him drive a Bentley either.
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Old July 25, 2012, 06:47 AM   #32
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Ok, so maybe my suggestion of the 44 magnum anachronism was a bad idea.

How about instead a 5 in registered magnum?

oh wait, he's British......its way too much gun for a girly Brit man
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Old July 25, 2012, 09:23 AM   #33
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Another consideration could be the supressed High Standard HD pistol developed for the OSS. Maybe your character could obtain a prototype through the Lend-Lease Program.
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Old July 25, 2012, 06:44 PM   #34
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Spy Guns

The information I have received on this forum regarding a sniper rifle as well as a handgun for the protagonist in my spy novel is extraordinary. I feel quite lucky to hook up with such knowledgeable folks - my gratitude to each of you. I will filter all the information and get busy. The sniper's scene is coming up in just a few chapters. Meantime, perhaps I will post the scene for your scrutiny and authentication. Shooting scenes from my novel "The Unwilling Spy" were fairly tame compared in my current novel. I'm excited that you have helped me sound like an expert in my novel. Best to all!!! Sue
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Old July 25, 2012, 08:28 PM   #35
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Walther P38 with shortened and threaded barrel. Not only would this be historically accurate, the US military used P38s with suppressors to take out bad guys in the 50s through the 90s according to what I've read. The first shot in most suppressors will still have a loud crack in most calibers, check out silencers on you tube to hear what they sound like.
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Old July 25, 2012, 09:37 PM   #36
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A 1941 suppressor would use wipes, correct?
I doubt many spies used them. How would you explain it if found?
probably better to just have 'em pick up a pillow to shoot through.
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Old July 28, 2012, 01:45 AM   #37
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The PPK has been around since 1931

Well, I did not know that (My best Johnny)! I'm kind of surprised for no reason.
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Old July 28, 2012, 03:20 PM   #38
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Old August 11, 2012, 12:20 PM   #39
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Sniper Rifle for Spy Novel

Creeper, I just sent you a private message with a passage from my latest manuscript. It concerns the sniper rifle used by the protagonist. I would appreciate your comments as to the accuracy of what I've written. My thanks to you and let me know if you have questions. Best! Sue P. S. The time frame is WWII 1941 in Nazi occupied Paris. The protagonist is a British secret agent.
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Old August 11, 2012, 12:25 PM   #40
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Hi Author... I'll take a look today and get back to you.

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Old August 11, 2012, 09:02 PM   #41
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I find it infinitely easier to carry around a suppressor, rather than a pillow.
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Old August 11, 2012, 11:37 PM   #42
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Going out on a limb here.

PPK would be a likely possible choice as they were available on the Continent well beforew2 WWII and you could make a solid case that the spy would use something there was local available ammunition

.32 would be one good choice as it would be widely used through the conquered contured (bothe German and indigious police use) . Was considered adequate at the time though it tended to be more a badge than used often.

Silencer an issue and possibly resolved by techno whizzadry by the Boffins before he went in.

Sniper rifle again the German bolt action K98 Sniper (the semi auto Gewerh 43 would seem to be less likely choice). Again possible to procure local ammo if needed.

One off mission in and out maybe not but long stay?
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Old August 12, 2012, 02:31 AM   #43
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The Brits also used silenced Winchester 74 rifles in .22lr, supplied by the Americans. This was included in the SOE field manual. Scroll down toward the bottom of this page:

For a handgun, use of something in a caliber the Germans used would seem to be more logical. .32 auto was a definite choice, and the Colt Pocket Hammerless was documented to be in service with the British OSS and SOE. These would not have been silenced but definitely very concealable.

Good luck on your project.
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Old August 12, 2012, 06:42 PM   #44
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My source tells me a lot of Colt 1903 .32 ACP Hammerless pistols were used by allied forces for covert ops in WWII. And my source was there. Apparently it was easier to find ammo behind enemy lines if needed.
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Old August 13, 2012, 01:30 PM   #45
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The premise of 1941 in Paris - interesting. An agent would probably use items common to the territory. That means German/French/Polish weapons. The PPK in .32 (7.65mm) would be appropriate for under 25 (actually under 15) yds (meters in Europe). Not very powerful, but easy to pocket carry - especially in the trousers of the era. For a rifle, my inclination would be a Mannlincher in 7mm or a BRNO hunting rifle in the same caliber (just "shooting in the dark" as I'm not too familiar with European long arms). A spy would better able to acquire locally a descent hunting rifle/scope combination (and handguns also) from one of the Partisans . Distances of up to 500 meters would be fine unless you're looking at head shots. An assassin/trained marksman would be very comfortable targeting at these ranges. U.S. Marines all shoot standard infantry weapons at 500 yards in qualification - and consider dropping even one point at this range to be embarrassing.
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Old August 13, 2012, 02:46 PM   #46
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Autor, here is a movie you should watch as source of inspiration concerning material used under WWII

here is the principal caracter using a silenced Unique french pistol for taking a nazi officer

here a french unique with silencer

and her searching for a sniper rifle with a scoped MAS 36

here is the trailer of the movie where she use a scoped Lee Enfield as sniper rifle.

Last edited by plom; August 13, 2012 at 04:03 PM.
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Old August 13, 2012, 03:31 PM   #47
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here is the trailer in English, these women prepared the landing for the D-Day...

and here a useful link for the weapons used in the movie

Last edited by plom; August 13, 2012 at 04:04 PM.
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