The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 28, 2012, 03:35 PM   #1
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
Guns of the Confederacy

An interesting article popped up in my daily deluge of email from Gun Digest:

http://www.gundigest.com/article/joh...b-and-his-guns

It's a little excessively peppered with "Johnny Reb", but a good read, nonetheless.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old June 28, 2012, 11:12 PM   #2
Hellgate
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2010
Location: Orygun
Posts: 868
That was a joy to read even with all the "Johnny Rebs".
__________________
With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball.
SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129
Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)
Hellgate is offline  
Old June 29, 2012, 10:27 AM   #3
Rachen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: Weekend cowboy
Posts: 542
I wanted to use JHNNYREB as my license plate, but it wouldn't look right on a cab-unit design, streamlined EuroCargo semitractor.

Now maybe if I had a Peterbilt or Kenworth

PS- The Confederacy never built any Model 1858s with brass frames. Only a few copies of 1851s were made using bronze, and these were not too combat-sturdy.
Rachen is offline  
Old June 29, 2012, 03:30 PM   #4
buckhorn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2012
Location: mid michigan
Posts: 196
I believe they were brass framed. And even at the end of the war, the Rebs had to turn to wrought iron, because they couldn't make any more brass. So the last guns the Rebs made were iron, when they ran out of brass
buckhorn is offline  
Old June 29, 2012, 05:07 PM   #5
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Guns in the day including Colt's were made from wrought iron. The brass used in Confederate guns was red brass or gunmetal which was bronze with a high copper content. Colt nor Remington made any brass framed guns.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 30, 2012, 09:45 PM   #6
swopjan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2011
Posts: 156
Certainly a good read. I googled a few guns mentioned in that article, Kerr revolver look pretty neat.
swopjan is offline  
Old July 11, 2012, 02:00 PM   #7
freebird72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2010
Posts: 241
Wait. You people are saying Rem never made brass guns? I had heard that Rem made brass guns and they were more much common than non-brass to the extent that non-brass Rem 58s were held in high value.

Have I been taught wrong since I was little, or am I missing something?
freebird72 is offline  
Old July 11, 2012, 03:00 PM   #8
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
Well, I don't know about never, but the 1858 was a steel-framed gun. They weren't made of brass because they didn't need to be - the North had no particular shortage of iron, so there was no need to substitute "inferior" metal.

One of the easiest ways to answer the question is to compare the number of original brass framed Remingtons to the number of original steel framed Remingtons. If brassers were common, you'd see them turn up here and there. Since they don't, it seems safe to say that there either weren't any made or there were so few made as to not really matter.

It seems to me that the whole brass-framed guns, the so-called "Confederate" guns, are, for the most part, an Italian invention. It's my opinion that they saw the Griswold and Gunnison as a copy of the Colt Navy and ran with the idea that anything brass framed was Confederate. There were plenty of steel and iron framed Confederate revolvers - and plenty of them were Colts. Sam was making revolvers well before the war started.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old July 11, 2012, 06:16 PM   #9
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
Wait. You people are saying Rem never made brass guns? I had heard that Rem made brass guns and they were more much common than non-brass to the extent that non-brass Rem 58s were held in high value.

Have I been taught wrong since I was little, or am I missing something?
You were taught wrong. There were no brass Remingtons or Remington clones. Zero, zilch, nada, none.


Quote:
It seems to me that the whole brass-framed guns, the so-called "Confederate" guns, are, for the most part, an Italian invention. It's my opinion that they saw the Griswold and Gunnison as a copy of the Colt Navy and ran with the idea that anything brass framed was Confederate.

There were a few companies in the South that made brass framed .36 caliber revolvers but quantities were usually very few. No brass frames were made in .44 caliber. The Italians, especially Pietta count on nobody knowing or caring enough about history. Uberti started out with brass framed guns but are more history conscious now. Some of the guns Pietta makes that actually existed like Police models are historically incorrect using the wrong size frames and number of chambers. The Colt 51 Navy was never offered in the Army caliber of .44

Last edited by Hawg; July 11, 2012 at 06:23 PM.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 09:50 PM   #10
Bill Akins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,135
Quote:
Hawg Haggen wrote:
You were taught wrong. There were no brass Remingtons or Remington clones. Zero, zilch, nada, none.

No, "you were taught wrong" on how to use proper specifics as to Remington revolver model when you make such a wide sweeping incorrect statement as that.

Your above quote is not an accurate statement as you wrote it, since you did not specify an "1858" Remington. So either your information is incorrect or you were lacking in not giving specifics in that particular statement of yours as to which percussion model Remington. At any rate, that particular above sentence as you wrote it is totally incorrect.

Remington did in fact manufacture their percussion .31 caliber spur trigger pocket revolver nicknamed "Baby Remington" with a brass frame as well as a steel frame. That makes a brass frame Remington a historical fact.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 19, 2012 at 12:08 AM.
Bill Akins is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 10:00 PM   #11
Bill Akins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,135
Quote:
Hawg haggen wrote:
Guns in the day including Colt's were made from wrought iron. The brass used in Confederate guns was red brass or gunmetal which was bronze with a high copper content. Colt nor Remington made any brass framed guns.
Not true. Again you fail to specify the exact model of Remington you are writing about and neglect to recognize the historical fact of the .31 caliber, spur trigger, percussion "Baby Remington" revolver that Remington manufactured both in brass frame and steel frame versions.

.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 18, 2012 at 10:06 PM.
Bill Akins is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 10:32 PM   #12
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Quote:
Not true. Again you fail to specify the exact model of Remington you are writing about and neglect to recognize the historical fact of the .31 caliber, spur trigger, percussion "Baby Remington" revolver that Remington manufactured both in brass frame and steel frame versions.
Yes Bill you are correct. A few of the first .31 POCKET pistols did have brass frames but they were quickly discontinued. I stand corrected on that point but the discussion was about full size guns.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 18, 2012, 10:46 PM   #13
Ideal Tool
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,080
Hello, everyone. I have read where the southern gunmakers tried twisting iron bar stock in an efffort to strengthen it for revolver cylinders, due to the scarcity of quality steel. This didn't work, as there were reports of burst cylinders. Has anyone came across such a twisted cylinder revolver? I know some forging flow patterns become visible on older firearms..I wonder if it would be on these?
Ideal Tool is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 12:00 AM   #14
Bill Akins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,135
Quote:
Hawg haggen wrote:
Yes Bill you are correct. A few of the first .31 POCKET pistols did have brass frames but they were quickly discontinued. I stand corrected on that point but the discussion was about full size guns.
From the very first post and up to post #5 (which was yours), in which you wrote... "Colt nor Remington made any brass frame guns"....there was not any mention that full size guns were the only specific topic of the discussion. In fact in the entire thread up to this point, nowhere was it stipulated nor mentioned that full size guns were the exclusive topic of the discussion.


We only know what you write. Not what you're thinking.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 19, 2012 at 12:15 AM.
Bill Akins is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 12:14 AM   #15
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Whatever Bill. You made your point. It's all good.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 19, 2012, 11:13 PM   #16
Shotput79
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 186
I just read and let the history buffs have at it. I've had a lot of fun over the years with some find not so pc pistols though. Thinks Hardcase for the post. It's a good read.
Shotput79 is offline  
Old July 25, 2012, 03:55 AM   #17
38splfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Location: Ft. Lewis/Tacoma, WA.
Posts: 1,034
Good article.

I have read the article and enjoyed it, despite the excessive colloqiuailisms. There was one brass frame revolver that saw regular Confederate service, the Spiller and Burr revolver. It shared many visual similarities with the '58 Remington. There is a good image and description of the revolver in Echoes of Glory; Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy.
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others and I expect the same from them." - John Wayne
38splfan is offline  
Old July 25, 2012, 09:21 AM   #18
pohill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2005
Location: northeast
Posts: 521
Actually, the Spiller & Burr .36 was a copy of the Whitney .36. The Whitney had an iron frame.


Original Spiller & Burr
pohill is offline  
Old July 25, 2012, 11:49 AM   #19
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 2,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 38splfan
There was one brass frame revolver that saw regular Confederate service, the Spiller and Burr revolver. It shared many visual similarities with the '58 Remington. There is a good image and description of the revolver in Echoes of Glory; Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy.
There were only around 1450 Spiller and Burr revolvers made of the 15,000 that the Confederate Government ordered. By contrast, there were approximately 3700 Griswold and Gunnison revolvers made before the North burned the factory in 1864. In addition, around 2400 iron framed Leech & Rigdon, Rigdon and Ansley, and Augusta model revolvers were made.
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 04:04 PM   #20
38splfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Location: Ft. Lewis/Tacoma, WA.
Posts: 1,034
@ Pohill

Pohill,

Thanks for the correction/ clarification. I appreciate learning new things and stand quite corrected.
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others and I expect the same from them." - John Wayne
38splfan is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 07:00 PM   #21
pohill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2005
Location: northeast
Posts: 521
The Spiller & Burr .36 and Whitney .36 are similiar to the Remington-Beals .36.
pohill is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 07:26 PM   #22
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
Not similar enough to be mistaken for one.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 28, 2012, 09:23 PM   #23
pohill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2005
Location: northeast
Posts: 521
Still similiar...

pohill is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11068 seconds with 9 queries