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View Poll Results: overall quality/reliability/performence(not price)
dpms ap4 7 5.69%
armalite ar-15 10 8.13%
bushmaster ar-15 24 19.51%
colt ar-15 60 48.78%
rock river arms ar-15 22 17.89%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 30, 2010, 09:28 PM   #26
BIG P
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It didnt make the list but the STAG is a nice all around rifle had mine 5years
no problems at the range or woods my vote is STAG.
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:33 PM   #27
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I didn't claim so much for a second, but the idea that creating some artificial criteria about how the rifle is built and putting them into a matrix makes Colt the best rifle is retarded.
How is better testing and desirable features "artificial criteria". Yes perhaps your definition of "best" is not the same as most, but if non milspec and a improperly staked gas key is what you like by all means get one.

I'm not saying these other ARs are bad if you want them for a range toy, but I don't anyone here is going to sit here and tell me olympic or cmmg is better than a Colt.
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:34 PM   #28
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So what's the problem with DPMS? I love mine. It's accurate and has never jammed. What more can you ask from a semi-auto rifle?
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:35 PM   #29
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So what's the problem with DPMS? I love mine. It's accurate and has never jammed. What more can you ask from a semi-auto rifle?
To make you some bacon in the morning. Duh.
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:51 PM   #30
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There is nothing wrong with DPMS or for that matter my OLY I just sold, but there is definitely better. If I were to get a defensive carbine i would not compromise, I would get one of carbines from the top(left) of the chart.

Now for plinking you can get whatever you want the worst that can happen is you have to head back home or end your session early if something breaks.

My next AR will be a BCM or DD. Am I planning to shoot terrorist with it? no, but for only $100-$200 more than the other brands why not get something head shoulders above the rest.(BCM has uppers for only $395)
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Old October 30, 2010, 09:52 PM   #31
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I have taken apart and machined a lot of ar15s from many manufacturers and because i mount them on fixtures and probe them for where to start machining i would say that colt is the most consistent.
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Old October 30, 2010, 10:03 PM   #32
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"To make you some bacon in the morning. Duh." Ya. I could take a boar out with it.
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Old October 30, 2010, 10:03 PM   #33
10mmAuto
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How is better testing and desirable features "artificial criteria". Yes perhaps your definition of "best" is not the same as most, but if non milspec and a improperly staked gas key is what you like by all means get one.
Typically I like to quantify what's best in terms of performance. Not to mention that cute matrix left out most of the high quality manufacturers of ARs.
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Old October 30, 2010, 10:12 PM   #34
espnazi
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You cant quantify in terms of performance since it will vary from rifle to rifle. Yes you can get DPMS that is great but the next one may not be. What you can do is make sure everything is consistent and within spec while using quality materials so that you can try to get consistent performance.
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Old October 31, 2010, 02:10 AM   #35
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well i googled ,how colt was better and came up with rock river being better and armalite not even being mentioned very much
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Old October 31, 2010, 02:45 AM   #36
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Regardless of opinion noone can argue for best Price/performance BCM wins, end of story....

And in the department not comparing price Knights Armament, which noone likes to buy cause they're outrageously expensive :barf:
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Old October 31, 2010, 03:07 AM   #37
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And in the department not comparing price Knights Armament, which noone likes to buy cause they're outrageously expensive
Personal comparison, having used and laid hands on both Noveske's AR-15s/AR-10s are better performers and have better fit/finish/quality components than Knights AR-15/AR-10 equivalents.
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Old October 31, 2010, 03:36 AM   #38
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?

well i was curious as to why people would say colt over rra? well, except for the pony
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Old October 31, 2010, 07:20 AM   #39
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best Price/performance BCM wins
BCM very very high quality for a fair price.
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Old October 31, 2010, 07:57 AM   #40
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The chart serves the technical aspect of what is actually done to put together the M4s available that are listed.
It is true that one could pick a winner from any of the brands out of luck or experience or financial limits.
It is also true one could spend a fortune for the best on the chart and not need to to get results desired.
I am still winding my way through the chart learning how much more the chart shows than I know.
The chart is the most technical compilation of data I have ever seen on the M4s.
I doubt anyone here (including myself) knows enough about the chart to declare a different order!
And we have these posts about "building your own" that really fascinate me.
I am not a professional M4 company selling M4s to the US Army.
I doubt anyone else here is.
So whoever says they "know better" than the chart in building their own is a very private industry lacking my trust in credentials.

Let's use the chart and see how a problem can develop in the lower sided arms (to the right of the chart).

1. You can bang the front sight of your Armalite on a window sill during a DEA raid and render it inoperable because the gas line is closed off from the twist in the non-staked front sight gas line area. This has been documented.
2. You can keep your unprotected surfaces underneath the sights away from "waterborne" operations but dampness or moisture in the air can cause rust.
3. You can choose a batch tested, instead of every single MPI bolt tested, rifle hoping the one you got passed inspection--but because it was not individually tested and proven who knows?

Last edited by pythagorean; October 31, 2010 at 08:05 AM.
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Old October 31, 2010, 11:14 PM   #41
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?

still not answerin the question?????????????????
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Old November 1, 2010, 12:23 AM   #42
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well i was curious as to why people would say colt over rra? well, except for the pony


People say colt over rra because of how it is made, the test that each barrel and bcg go through before it gets to your hand. The use of the proper steel and chambering for actual 5.56 stuff like that. It's just not about the brand.
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Old November 1, 2010, 12:27 AM   #43
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still not answerin the question?????????????????
I'd say pythagorean just gave a good answer why Colt tends to be more reliable than RRA!

Nobody's saying RRA is bad and nobody's trying to hurt anyone's feelings but there's a reason why some brands are cheaper and score so lowly on "The Chart".


ETA: and pcardinal42 (I didn't see his post since I didn't refresh the screen before I posted.)
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Old November 1, 2010, 12:56 AM   #44
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I was under the impression that the decsending order of the chart indicated which brand name conformed the most, or least, to military spec.s .......
is that an incorrect take on the subject ?
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Old November 1, 2010, 02:09 AM   #45
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Who made "Kaiser Defense" lowers?
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Old November 1, 2010, 05:35 AM   #46
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Manufactures on the left of the chart conform to the mil-spec. The X's show which parts of the mil-spec the manufacture follows and which ones they do not.
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Old November 1, 2010, 07:01 AM   #47
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Regarding "the chart"

Most ARs that you can buy at a gun store are going to run the first 500 rounds without a problem. Many of them are going to run the first 1000 rounds without a problem. The differences that are objective that "The Chart" reflects will manifest when one runs the gun hard and starts to get a higher round count.

If you want to take your low end rifle to the range, shoot a hundred rounds or so once in a while, rock on and have a great time. I have a Bushmaster I took as payment from a guy who was cash poor. It's a great rifle to play with and I haven't had any trouble with it yet. It might run many thousands more rounds without trouble, but if it does it will be in spite of its demonstrably lower build quality and quality control than my other rifles.

If you want to buy a rifle that is more likely to stand up to, say, high round count training classes (say 750-1,000 rounds in a day for a couple of days running) then I recommend that you look at the end of The Chart where Colt, Daniel Defense and BCM are found. These rifles have higher quality components and are subjected to more quality control measures before they are put on the market. That's not gun store nonsense, that's not "Ponyitis," that's not SWAT magazine fanboy stuff, that's fact.
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Old November 1, 2010, 04:36 PM   #48
jwf1989
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?

that was the answer i was looking for
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Old November 1, 2010, 04:44 PM   #49
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If I'm not mistaken Travis Haley and a hand full of guys held off half a city's worth of insurgents in Najaf with Bushmasters for the better part of a day at the CPA, so I'm going to go ahead and guess they're not that bad.

Last edited by 10mmAuto; November 1, 2010 at 04:57 PM.
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Old November 1, 2010, 04:55 PM   #50
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"Fear the man with one gun"

I think any of these AR's are quality! It just depends on how hard you plan on running your weapon (silenced, un-silenced; SBR, SPR platform, etc..)

If you like to run you weapons hard, I can't suggest a better gun than Daniel Defense! I love mine. Even though i swapped barrels on it, it still has all the other top-end parts on it-barrel is a Lothar Walther.
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