The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 1, 2010, 12:08 PM   #26
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 2,320
Add dog to that sentence...

Your wife, weapon & ride are three things that are not meant for the friend.
"You haven't lived until you've died." - various
People . . . not a big fan . . .
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 12:28 PM   #27
Junior Member
Join Date: July 30, 2008
Posts: 11
no love for the 20?

You don't give any info on the lady's stature, but I don't see why the Remington 870 20ga pump wouldn't be a perfect solution, especiually if your student has no real experience with shooting . Even the SP101 with its chunky weight is uncomfortable at best to shoot and I would call it marginal at best on bears.
If cost is a factor, just take her to any pawn shop, used gun store, or gun show and you can pick up a lightly used 870 for as low as $150. Buy her a case of low brass field loads (2¾" #6's or even 8's) that will get her used to muzzle blast and recoil. Milk Jugs filled with water at about 15-20 yards make a satisfying and spectacular target to keep practice interesting.
Then introduce 3" 00 buck loads as well as slugs, just enough so she feels confident shooting them. There is not a Bear or Man alive that won't be impressed by a load of 00 buck to the face or a heavy slug to the chest.
gunokie is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 12:34 PM   #28
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 10,529
My response without reading other posts first (I'll go back and read after responding )

NO WAY! I don't lend guns out to anyone when I'm not present. Here's why:

1. The same reason I don't lend my car out to anyone - OWNER'S LIABILITY.
2. Guns are like underwear - some things you just don't borrow or lend out.
3. Are you ready to say: "That's ok, that scratch just adds character to my T-Series Belgian Browning anyway"?
4. It's my belief that every law abiding citizen should own at least one gun - GO OUT AND BUY ONE!
Skans is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 06:28 PM   #29
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,397
I won't loan a gun to a friend for SD/HD. It has to do with legal issues.

BUT, I will do this:

1) I'll sell them the gun (say my Bersa .380, which is well tested, and my Mossberg 500 18 inch 12 gauge with tac-star side saddle, also well tested) for a very very reasonable price (and I mean very!) plus ammo for them that is also well tested in the pieces.

2) I will then take them to the range and train them. If it takes several times to the range, so be it. I'll bring .22 trainers, IPSC targets, stands, etc...

3) I'll also give them Massad Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme" plus the laws on deadly force in the state of Texas.

4) And if they want a CHL, I'll guide them through the process to get one.

But I won't just loan a gun to any friend, male or female. Like my granddad said once, "I'll loan you my wife before I'll loan you my gun."

“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 06:58 PM   #30
Junior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 8
As for the shotgun, I perfer the Mossberg or Browning style tang safety over the Remington crossbolt safety for inexperienced shooters. It just seems a little more instinctive and is easier to see while still gripping the gun. Also, I don't think 00 buckshot is available in a 20ga. I see mostly 2 3/4" 3 buck and some 3" 2 buck.
89yj is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 07:04 PM   #31
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
No - point the gun at someone if and only if you would be justified under the law to employ an instrument of lethal force. Also, your intent is to stop the incident, not to kill.

Implying that you intend to kill is not a good thing if the incident is ambiguous and/or goes awry.
I think Wyobohunter confused the basic rules of gun safety with SD tactics when in a dangerous situation.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 10:11 PM   #32
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2008
Location: Back in Wyoming
Posts: 1,125
no love for the 20?
Not for an all around defensive gun in brown bear country. Sh'ed be fine with a 12 gauge. Just practice with 2 3/4" slugs and carry 3" slugs when outside with the kids... throw some buckshot in the tube for unwanted houseguests at night.

Even the SP101 with its chunky weight is uncomfortable at best to shoot and I would call it marginal at best on bears.
I'd call it marginal for black bears and completely inadequate for the kind of bears that live in that neck of the woods. That's why it is a stop gap measure for the crazy neighbor.

I think Wyobohunter confused the basic rules of gun safety with SD tactics when in a dangerous situation.
I think Nnobby45 confused something somebody else said with something I said
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

Last edited by wyobohunter; June 1, 2010 at 11:06 PM.
wyobohunter is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 11:04 PM   #33
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,203
I would have no problems lending a gun to a friend. I am very selective about the people I choose for friends, and would be even more selective about the friend I would lend a gun to. Since we are talking about the safety of your friend's wife, I would be even more inclined to lend her a firearm until they could get one that suits her.

I would bring several "suitable" guns so that she could try them out and decide what worked well for her. I would suggest one handgun and one shotgun since the handgun is much more portable. After she finds something she likes, they can order their own.

While I hate to be legalistic with friends, I would also ask that they sign a form acknowledging that they took possession of the handgun on such and such date.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 1, 2010, 11:54 PM   #34
Junior member
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Your wife, personal weapon & ride are three things that are not meant for the friend.
Fixed it. Us Americans always have extra guns for our friends. No, not my personal 45 but lemmee see what I can come up with...
Edward429451 is offline  
Old June 2, 2010, 02:19 AM   #35
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 705
Maybe I’m just too much of a soft touch on this issue. Maybe I’m just a fool for legally exposing myself. Maybe since there was a time that I was on a tight enough budget that a gun wasn’t a priority … who knows?

I’ll loan a person of good character a firearm without a second thought… most especially to a female in need. It neither matters if I think they should already have one, nor do other second guesses of their situation matter.
If they believe they need it, and I am convinced that they are willing to use it legitimately … I am obligated to not only give it to them, but teach them how and when to use it. It goes back to the reason I decided to become certified as a firearms instructor. Twenty years ago, the home of my aunt was broken into. She was raped and beaten to death with a flashlight. She had refused offers of guns from myself, granddad, uncle, and others … along with offers of teaching her how to use one. Mostly she refused because she was afraid of guns for some reason, but I can’t help but think part of it might have been due to those offering having no "official" credentials as an instructor. She was impressed by certificates and such and there weren’t any certified instructors in this area; at least none that I know of. She also didn’t think "IT" could happen to her, so she didn’t see the need.

Those who see a need are the best judge of their own situation, imo. Anyway, for the past 20 years, I haven't refused a woman who’s requesting protection or the means of protecting herself. After the days spent cleaning cooked blood out of a floor furnace, ripping up soaked carpet, painting walls, and painting the ceiling; I may have lost the ability to refuse such a request. I don’t know if I could handle the possible consequences of refusing aid to a lady in need of protection. Perhaps this could serve as a legal defense for me if there are ever any problems, but ... I really don’t care.

All they have to do is ask; and they will receive a suitable firearm, ammunition, and instruction.
Keep smiling ... it'll just make 'em wonder what you're up to...
animal is offline  
Old June 20, 2010, 09:12 PM   #36
Join Date: December 10, 2002
Posts: 28
I'd be much more inclined to loan them the money to buy their own gun. That seems like things would be a lot simpler from a legal point of view if they end up using it.
Scottmkiv is offline  
Old June 20, 2010, 09:47 PM   #37
mega twin
Senior Member
Join Date: August 15, 2006
Posts: 432
Any one of my real friends are welcome to any of my guns at any time.
None of my" friends" are welcome to the same offer.
mega twin is offline  
Old July 4, 2010, 05:43 PM   #38
Join Date: May 30, 2010
Posts: 37
I agree with the liabilities involved, but, to get back to the original question. Most women due very well with following instructions, usually better than men. Just be sure to explain, in detail, how the sight picture is supposed to work. Explain that she will not be able to hold the gun perfectly still and that she needs to squeeze the trigger not pull it as the gun passed over what she wants to hit. I find using the empty gun and letting the woman dry fire is very effective. Teach her to keep her focus on the front sight. Start with soft .38 loads and gradually work up. Do not use the old "I'll put 5 soft ones in and one hot one." Women do not like surprises such as this. She will probably surprise you with how well she will shoot. The main worry I would have is the kids. If you have a microsafe to go with the gun, it would be a much better deal. Lastly, make sure she understands that you do not threaten with the gun. If you pull it you shoot. If she is not fully reconciled to taking a human life, she does not need the gun. Give her a large canister of bear pepper spray and a cell phone.
HighExpert is offline  
Old July 4, 2010, 06:00 PM   #39
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 9,083
I'm not a lawyer-but......
There is no legal difference between loaning or selling. You are transferring possession (as long as the loan violates no laws.) If the loan/sale is legal, then there would be no legal repercussions if the gun were used in a SD situation.
And how would anyone prove the loan was not a sale or gift?
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old July 4, 2010, 06:22 PM   #40
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,351
I agree with Skans
shafter is offline  
Old July 4, 2010, 08:24 PM   #41
Junior member
Join Date: December 3, 2009
Location: SE Alabama
Posts: 701
DONT DO IT! Mine got lost in pawn after loaning it.
nefprotector is offline  
Old July 5, 2010, 08:18 AM   #42
Senior Member
Join Date: August 21, 2008
Location: Back in Wyoming
Posts: 1,125
This is so over with

Crazy neighbor lit his car on fire, went driving around like a lunatic, tried to kidnap another neighbor, ended up holed up in his house and finally gave up to the troopers (took them forever to show up). Crazy neighbor is in jail and I have the gun back, end of story.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
wyobohunter is offline  
Old July 5, 2010, 05:10 PM   #43
Join Date: March 28, 2009
Posts: 51
I'm unsure of the legality of it but as it has been said before I'm fairly certain if it's your gun and something happens your responsible. I'd say the best bet it (if he is a trusted friend) sell it to him for a buck, fill out a bill of sale and everything. Then once he has the income/time to pick himself up a weapon buy it back for a dollar and call it a day.
chatman_55 is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10127 seconds with 9 queries