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Old April 26, 2010, 05:00 PM   #51
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We all have our own morals, values and understandings of our local laws. I would never try and tell someone what they should or should not do when faced with danger. I can only share with you what I feel I would do.

I have carried a firearm for a very long time. I do so to allow myself the chance to defend against sudden life threatening danger that I can not otherwise avoid. It is not my intention to stand between two fighting men, chase a purse snatcher or investigate odd happenings in dark alleys. This is not to say that I will not help a fellow citizen. I am willing to help defend others but only in the most dire of sitations where the threat to life is (right here and right now).

Just as I am willing in help a fellow citizen, I certainly have a willingness to help a Officer who is down. Obviously the dynamic is much different and just exactly when and how to go about doing so would have to be determined in the moment.
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Old April 27, 2010, 02:54 PM   #52
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Here in Omaha just yesturday a guy was in a walgreens when 2 guys came in wearint hoods one had a shotgun, the guy was CCW he shot the armed one dead the other was arrested later. Maybe these criminals will get a little scared and stop their bad behavior.
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Old April 28, 2010, 09:50 AM   #53
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Here's one where someone intervened (H2H) in a knife fight and guess what - didn't come out so well. Even if he wasn't left to die - he still might have gone on before help arrived.

So, it circles around - that before you say - you can't live with yourself, if you didn't help - you can't live with yourself if you are dead.

Thus, you need to consider this. Decide your priorities.
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Old May 12, 2010, 11:44 PM   #54
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What would you do had you not been armed? Would you feel the same urgency to get involved?
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Old May 13, 2010, 03:57 PM   #55
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7MM... Thanks for the Kudos. And in all honesty.. It was not only my pleasure to serve on that capacity. It was my honor to serve in that capacity. I thank the every day citizen for their trust in me, and Pray that I served them well...

Once again... If an officer needs help, I would expect the average person to help them. As I see it helping an officer in need is the duty of every citizen. I wouldnt expect a civilian to put themself in harms way... But a phone call to 911 or offering some first aid...

Maybe I'm just too old fashion... I'm not of the ME!!! generation.
I still believe that people should do the right thing.... Because it's the right thing. And I have gone completely off subject. Sorry.

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Old May 13, 2010, 04:34 PM   #56
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But this situation really confounds me. Thoughts? Ideas? Answers from LEO's?
Before you talk about saving a cop from a gang of thugs, you need to handle the matter of being armed for your protection without worrying about what the grocery store owner thinks. Sounds like his store is a place where being armed for SD would be a high priority.

Why would you even think about approaching a cop with a gun in your hand so you can "keep them at bay"? I'm concerned about you--hopefully it's just inexperience.

AND QUIT LEAVING YOUR GUN IN THE DANG CAR when you go in the store. (unless state law requires you honor the posted sign).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; May 13, 2010 at 04:42 PM.
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Old May 21, 2010, 03:56 AM   #57
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Be a "good witness"....

In that type event, I'd wait and see what the male subjects said or did before I'd act. If anything, I'd get the store manager or if on duty, a store security guard. In my urban area sworn LE officers and contract security guards are more common in strip malls/chain supermarkets. I would maybe call the local LE agency's non emergency # if the males were just standing or watching the traffic stop/field interview but acting shady. I would NOT engage either the police officer or the intoxicated males at all. The cop has enough to deal with and you do not need to give the drunk guys a chance to snatch your loaded weapon.
Remember; safety=distance. As a armed security officer and former MP I can tell you many "concerned citizens" have stumbled into highly volitile events and put cops/bystanders/security guards at more risk.

If I were a police or sheriff's dept supervisor and a citizen later told me why he called the office or reported an event like the post, I would fully understand it and inform the citizen that they did the smart thing.

ps: About 4/5 years ago I read of a small town police officer in a deserted strip mall parking lot who was shot with a shotgun by an unknown subject. The young cop was working on his reports/laptop and wasn't being alert. His LE vehicle was in the middle of the wide open parking lot. The incident was in the suburbs of Detroit MI.
The recent WA shooting of 4 uniformed police officers by a violent thug is another good example of LEOs keeping a keen eye while on & off duty.
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Old May 21, 2010, 11:17 AM   #58
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This an excellent read about the mind state of an LEO. The question is whether it fits you as a nonLEO.

The warrior and the merchant: Define who you are
Warrior! The word has caught on in everyday speech and has been applied to sports figures, articles of clothing, martial artists, military personnel, cops, and even various figures involved in peaceful activities. But, what is a warrior?
From Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Warrior: a man engaged or experienced in warfare; broadly: a person engaged in some struggle or conflict.
I believe that almost all cops, military personnel, and others would agree that we are definitely engaged in a struggle — both to maintain our nation and societal order and to actively suppress criminal and terrorist activities that threaten that order. Having established that, we next need to define our mission.
For most agencies, the words “Protect and Serve” are somewhere in a well-written mission statement. They define what we do.
• To Serve: To give service to or meet the needs of others
• To Protect: To keep others from harm.
Again, definitions that broadly define what we are supposed to do. Why then, is there such a disparity of opinions with regard to mindset and what we should be doing with regard to mission, training, and everyday activities?
Belief Systems and Values
To begin, I offer the following questions for you to ponder:
• For what or whom are you willing to fight, risk your life, and, if necessary, die?
• Is it fair to ask you to do that if you’re a cop who is charged with protecting and serving your community?
• Do you consider your status as a police officer a job or a calling?
• Is this a 24/7 commitment or an 8-12 hour shift commitment?
• When you swore your oath as a law enforcement officer to uphold, defend, and protect the constitution and the laws of your state, was it conditional in your mind or was this an absolute act in terms of service?
• How do you interpret the word ‘duty’?
• Is it fair to ask you do the above if you are off duty, don’t have any family with you, and you have your tools with you?
• Is it fair to ask you to carry your tools with you off duty even if you are not being paid to do so?
• Can we define a code of ethics, values and belief systems that we should be following?
Have you ever said or done the following:
• They don’t pay me enough to do this ______!
• My number one priority is to go home every night.
• Recited the police officers creed, “never get wet, never go hungry.”
• I’m not going to train on my day off unless they pay me to do it and give me free ammo...
• Shown up second or third on a call so you didn’t have to do the report?
• Avoided or held back on a call or failed to act because it was either a nuisance to you or you were afraid?
• Beat the crap out of someone during an arrest because “they deserved it”?
• Decided that something wasn’t worth doing because no one appreciates your efforts anyway?
• Put down a fellow officer because they pay for training on their own time and their own dime?
• Put down a rookie for being “too gung ho” about doing what he perceives to be his job. (Not talking about doing bad things here, just the attitude of total commitment).
Rank these in terms of Value to you:
• Country
• Family
• Friends
• Fellow officers
• Citizens
• Yourself
There is no judgment on my part in the above questions or statements. They are designed to help you clarify who you are and where you are heading. They are based on my own observations and experiences over the last 30 years, both as an officer and as a professional trainer.
Altruistic Behavior
There is a type of behavior that is manifested among those who serve selflessly which is called “altruistic behavior.”
From Wikipedia, we have the following explanation:
Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures, and a core aspect of various religious traditions. Altruism is the opposite of selfishness. Altruism can be distinguished from feelings of loyalty and duty. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while duty focuses on a moral obligation towards a specific individual, a specific organization (for example, a government), or an abstract concept (for example, patriotism etc). Some individuals may feel both altruism and duty, while others may not. Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition and need.
Pay particular attention to this behavior as it is fundamentally different from doing your duty and defines the differences in beliefs and values in individuals.
On a personal note, I believe that altruistic behavior represents the highest expression of warrior virtue. I also believe that society feels the same and that is why altruistic behavior is considered a virtue.
Enter, the Merchant
Again we refer to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a “merchant” is “One whose occupation is the wholesale purchase and retail sale of goods or services for profit. This many also include barter where money is not exchanged but a profit or equal value is made in terms of value.”
As one progresses in a career, there is a tendency to get what I call “creeping cynicism.” You realize that many people don’t really appreciate what you do, they just put up with you. Many don’t like you. You may feel that you are at odds with your administration or with your fellow officers. You burn out a bit; maybe a lot. You start to lose your enthusiasm for the job. Maybe your faith in humanity or doing the right thing is being eroded.
You gradually start to slip into the “merchant mentality.” As you go about your job, you subconsciously start to weigh risk versus reward or benefits versus hazards. You may become unwilling to give more of yourself because you feel that you’ve given enough or that people are asking too much of you. You may have some resentment when the department or your trainers ask you to train without compensation to you.
A question starts to intrude on your thought processes: “What’s in it for me?”
Many times, administration tends to overpromise what the department can reasonably do and stress out officers with increasing workloads with no increase of pay or benefits.
Service is a Voluntary Commitment, Duty is Not
I will not speak for others when I define my own values and beliefs. I also do not put myself above others or consider myself morally superior when I do speak out.
I think it is helpful to clarify your values and beliefs and prioritize them. Then you can make clear choices to better negotiate the path you choose in life. You can also determine your own levels of altruism, duty etc. and if cynicism is creeping into your life and undermining your values.
For me, being a warrior is a 24/7 commitment. This is my choice and my belief. It is independent of the job or the affiliations I may have. It colors my decisions on what I do, what I wear, how, when, and with what I choose to arm myself, as well as how (and how often) I train.
I train continuously. I try to carry what I consider to be an adequate firearm and sufficient ammunition with me at all times.
Though I would like others to voluntarily join with me in this belief, I cannot hold them to this voluntary standard. Again, this is altruistic behavior vs. the obligation of doing one’s duty. If they are doing their sworn duty while in uniform, that is what they are being paid to do and I cannot ask them to do more than they are willing to give.
Therefore, I also choose not to put myself on a higher moral plane or be disparaging of them if they do not choose to follow the standards I impose on myself.
To protect and serve means to put others needs ahead of my own self. I do not expect any reward for this service. If I could find a means of being paid elsewhere, I would protect and serve without pay. My sworn duty — when I was a police officer — was to uphold the constitution and the laws of my state, county, city, etc. It was to enforce the law, preserve the public order, and protect the citizens of my community.
To me, this means at any given moment of crisis, when life and death is on the line, my country and the lives of citizens or fellow officers have more worth than my own. This “gets me through the door.” Hopefully my skills will get me back out again. A sense of obligation to duty will also get one “through the door.” A merchant mentality will hesitate, hold back, and be indecisive.
These beliefs and values are not conditional or transactional on my part; they are absolute and still are to this day. When I train law enforcement and military in my academy, it is the needs of the citizens they protect as well as well as their own that I keep in mind and is why I will never lower the bar and let someone get through who cannot perform to standard.
One may talk about “warrior values” or “warrior beliefs.” Fundamentally, a warrior serves his country or his community, not just himself. What should you expect to receive in return for your service? If you are driven by altruistic behavior, you expect nothing. The reward is from the service that you gave. If you are driven by a sense of duty, you feel obligated to do your duty. You may only feel obligated to do so while you are being paid to do so. That is most certainly a choice.
Though we do need to make a living and most officers are paid to do the job. A warrior is expected to give service, risk life and limb, and do battle for his community and peers ...with not even a “thank you” in return most of the time.
For those driven by an altruistic drive, this is all part of the job. They get their reward from doing the service and don’t expect anything in return. This is directly at odds with the merchant mentality of getting more than you give or bartering for equal compensation for your acts.
For those driven by a sense of duty, it is also part of the job but you may feel that you are giving more than you are getting in return at times.
If you feel the need to be appreciated or thanked all of the time for what you do — or feel you “don’t get paid enough to do this _____” — then you are sliding into the merchant mentality.
It is helpful to separate your identity and the associated values as a warrior from your job at times. You train and you risk your life when necessary because YOU CHOOSE to do it, because that is what you believe in and what you value. This is not a merchant transaction where you feel you should be compensated in equal measure to the risks involved. You may never go in a room and take on a gunman if you value your life more than you value doing your duty or protecting another person, no matter what your technical skill level may be.
I’ve seen officers who look good in training but freeze up when confronted with their own death. It is total commitment to the values of duty and service that helps move us forward when others may hesitate or fall back.
A warrior serves his country and its citizens, period. It’s not a transaction, it’s not a self-serving commitment. It’s a code of honor that you voluntarily commit to, whether from an altruistic perspective, a sense of duty, or both.
For the leaders, take care of your people, protect them from overwork, shelter them from abuse, set the standards and live by them.
For the warriors, may God bless you and protect you as you go about your duties. Thank you for your service.
For the merchants, heed what I say. I will not judge you, but the people you serve (and serve with) will.
Obviously some things are job specific - but how altrusitic are you? You didn't make a committment to be such when you decided to carry a gun.
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Old May 21, 2010, 11:42 AM   #59
Don P
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This an excellent read about the mind state of an LEO. The question is whether it fits you as a nonLEO
Hopefully the read below the above statement should open all eyes as to the OP's question.
As for myself I am not LE so therefor I do not fit with my non-LE mindset.

I am willing to pay the ultimate price with regards to my family and self in trying to keep us safe and secure. Hopefully that day never comes.
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Old May 21, 2010, 01:19 PM   #60
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I was born to serve this nation in either the military, which I did for 21 years before being forced to medically retire, or on a police force somewhere. To my great dismay and severe frustration, the injuries I received during my last tour in Iraq prevent me from doing either one.

It is my natural nature to protect those who cannot or, will not, protect themselves, serve the public and when I die, I want it to be said that I was a man of God, a great family man, a man who would defend his country to the death, a man of great character, respect, honesty and commitment. God, Family, Country. I have lived my life by those statements.

I take a conversation like this very seriously. If I am in a position to help my fellow man, I will do so without regard for myself. If it would endanger my family, I would remain uninvolved until the threat/dire situation was gone, then offer any assistance I could.

I personally know my capabilities and have had extensive CQB training. I wasn't a door kicker in the Army, I was a UH-60 mechanic/crew chief. However, I served for the better part of a decade in an aviation group that worked with America's Elite Forces and Agencies. I only left that organization due to the burden it placed on my family. During my tenure there, I was blessed and highly motivated to being trained by some very good men from some fantastic organizations in CQB tactics and techniques. I did not kick in doors and run and gun on missions. On mission, I did my aviation job. I got to experience some tremendously dangerous and life threatening situations as well as numerous, intensively brutal training scenarios. I had a friggin BLAST my whole time there. The reason I say I've fired more rounds than most people will ever fire in their life is due to the weapon I had on my window sill. The fantastic M134 Mini-gun.

If I saw an officer in a gun fight with five gang members, I would attempt to let the officer know I was there to back him up. Simply approaching the fight from a different direction that shores up an officers left or right flank will inform the officer I am there to help as an armed citizen. I would attempt to do so in a fashion that would let the officer know I wasn't a threat, but an unexpected asset for his use and direction.

If that situation weren't possible, to relatively safely let the officer know I was on his/her side, I wouldn't enter the situation until I could do so with a high degree of assurance the officer wouldn't perceive me as a threat or I wouldn't force his attention to me during a critical point in his battle.

If I'm in a store with my CCW and thugs come in to rob the place, I will do whatever I could to prevent harm to others. If that required my drawing my weapon and firing on the criminals, I would certainly do so without hesitation. However, the situation may not require it. I'd rather just let the criminals steal what they wanted and depart with no shots being fired than possibly take a run of the mill armed robbery without active violence to the next level by my introducing my gunfire into the situation.

There are so many variables to take into account for any given situation, it's something that's very difficult to cover completely or even well.

Having said that though, I do believe my intent should be clear to my fellow forum members.
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Old May 23, 2010, 06:27 PM   #61
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One of the scarriest things I have ever heard in my life is a police officer yelling for help. Once when I was a senior in highschool I heard this first hand. Without a bit of hesitation I helped him. It was a local PD officer that was responding to a call of a wierdo in the parking lot. The wierdo was a very large guy. The cop went up to talk to him, and then the guy grabbed the cop and slammed him to the ground very hard. He had a full straddle on the cop pummeling his face. I put Mr. Wierdo in a choke hold from behind, and locked my legs around him, then leaned back. Mr. Wierdo went limp. The cop made it out from under him, and cuffed him. It took 4 very large men to get that guy into a van. He had to weigh at least 280. The cop thanked me. I filled out a statement. Then the other cops thanked me. The officer that was being pummeled went to the local ER with a broken nose, a shiner that covered both eyes, two broken teeth, and a mild concussion.
I will help a cop if they call out for someone to help them. The other one I know was the tape of Texas DPS officer that was overpowered by 3 men on a traffic stop. They managed to get his gun, and they killed him with it. His screams for help will make the hair on your neck stand on end.
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:34 PM   #62
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As I see it helping an officer in need is the duty of every citizen.
That's how I see it as well. Just telling a cop you have his back if he needs it can sometimes make a difference in the way perps are acting toward them. This from my brother-in-law who was a cop.
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:48 PM   #63
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Old May 24, 2010, 06:01 PM   #64
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If this starts to cycle back to the same old - I think we are probably done.

Saying its our duty vs. the risk - been there, done that in every discussion of the issue.

Anything new or it's time to bring down the curtain?
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:58 PM   #65
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I think this particular horse has been well beaten.
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
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Old May 25, 2010, 04:48 PM   #66
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I agree.

Thus, closed - thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

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