Teach me about Safes

[KChen986]

Hey All,

Since my collection is growing, I have been wanting to purchase a safe. I have been looking at Homeland Security Safes, since they offer the 10guage 20 gun safe for about ~1,500. Right within my price range (although I'm not adverse to spending more ~$2,800).

What type of fireproofing should I get? Is fireboard any good? Do people have anecdotal reports of fire-boarded safes surviving house fires? Should I spring for composite/fiberglass/whatever-material-it-is fireproofing? Does fireboard, due to its high moisture content rust-out guns?

Would I be better off saving up $5,000 for a Brownsafe?

Is 10 gauge steel really enough? Is 12 gauge steel?

180 degree out-side hinges or not? Is door storage important?

How should I move a safe? Who do I call to move safes? Should I wait until I settle in to a home to purchase a safe (currently living in apartments)?

Are most safes, which are IIRC rated at TLR-5 sufficient?

Thanks for any and all responses.

[a1abdj]

Since my collection is growing, I have been wanting to purchase a safe. I have been looking at Homeland Security Safes, since they offer the 10guage 20 gun safe for about ~1,500. Right within my price range (although I'm not adverse to spending more ~$2,800).

Most of your $1,500 or less gun safes are going to be Chinese. There is not anything wrong with that, but not all Chinese safes are built equally. Make sure you're getting one of decent build quality.

Is fireboard any good?

Not really, but that's what you're going to find in 95% of gun safes. It will offer some protection, but will usually not protect to the same extent most people expect.

Do people have anecdotal reports of fire-boarded safes surviving house fires?

Most fire board lined safes that I have opened after fires have had damaged contents. I have several photos of safes where the contents have been completely destroyed.

Should I spring for composite/fiberglass/whatever-material-it-is fireproofing?

To date, the best materials used for making a safe resistant to fire are cast insulations (think concrete type materials). There are only a few gun safe companies that build safes in this fashion.

Does fireboard, due to its high moisture content rust-out guns?

Fireboard should have a moisture content of around 6%. The humidity in normal air is more likely to cause rust issues.

Would I be better off saving up $5,000 for a Brownsafe?

I'm not a big fan of Brown. There are some really decent gun safes starting in the low $2,000 range.

Is 10 gauge steel really enough? Is 12 gauge steel?

What are you keeping inside of the safe? 12 gauge is 1/10", 10 gauge is a bit heavier than 1/8". If you're keeping a $5,000 collection, either should be fine. If you're keeping a $100,000 collection, neither is enough.

180 degree out-side hinges or not? Is door storage important?

External hinges offer many advantages over internal hinges.

How should I move a safe? Who do I call to move safes?

A safe company. They will be properly insured, have the proper equipment, lots of experience, and background checked employees. Do not confuse a safe company with a store that sells gun safes.

Should I wait until I settle in to a home to purchase a safe (currently living in apartments)?

Moving a safe can cost hundreds of dollars. No harm if you want to move it multiple times, but less expensive if you only have to move it once.

Are most safes, which are IIRC rated at TLR-5 sufficient?

You're thinking of an RSC rating which is a 5 minute rating against light hand tools. The lowest burglary rating is a TL-15 which is a 15 minute rating against heavy tools.

Ultimately, this comes down to the value of the contents within the safe.

[Lavid2002]

Someone knows their safes

[KChen986]

Thanks for the great reply! Could you give me the name of the people who make great gun safes starting at $2,000?

[mikejonestkd]

AMSEC makes a great safe in that price range. Contact Frank Zykan at the link in his response.

[a1abdj]

The AMSEC BF series starts in the $2,000 range (including shipping). They are a cast insulated safe and have a solid 1/2" plate door. They are made in the US by one of the largest safe manufacturers in the country.

If you're looking around for one, make sure you're pricing them from bonafide safe companies, and not an internet retailer working out of mom's basement.

[oneounceload]

You could also contact your local locksmith to see if he has a good safe that someone traded in on an upgrade. Might save you some on delivery and initial cost

[KChen986]

a1a,

First, thank you for the great information. Second, do you know what gauge steel the AMSEC BF 6030 uses for its side-walls? I'm hearing it's something like 10 gauge--and I wouldn't want to spend $2,000 just to have a thief pry through the side of my safe.

Thanks,
-Kir

[a1abdj]

It depends on what year the safe was built. The older safes use a 10 gauge outer wall with a 14 gauge inner wall. The newer safes are 11 gauge outer, and 16 gauge inner. 10 gauge is a bit over 1/8", 11 gauge is 1/8".

Don't let this turn you away from these safes though. Part of what makes the AMSECs a good safe is the cast insulation. This also adds to the burglary resistance of the safe. The fill creates a solid monolithic structure that reduces the ability to flex the steel during a brute force attack.

There are companies that offer more steel if you need it, like the Graffunder. However, their safes start at about twice the cost of the AMSEC. For the price of the AMSEC, you will not find a better US built safe.

I also sell an imported safe that is built in a similar fashion to the AMSEC, but isn't as "pretty". It uses a dual 10 gauge wall (a bit over 1/4" total) with a cast fill, and a door that uses three plates for a total thickness of 1/2" of steel (plus fill).

[lucy1nsky]

I am a locksmith in VA and we highly recommend and push our Liberty gun safes,
American built and wide variety in size and price range. Amsec is also good, but like i said we push liberty more.

[KChen986]

Lucy1nsky,

Do you know what guage steel the Liberty safes use? It's not listed on their websites.

Thanks!

[a1abdj]

Most of the Liberty line is 11 gauge with sheet wrapped doors. They aren't bad safes, but the BF series is far superior and in the same price range.

[Adirondack]

KChen986,

I did a lot of research before purchasing my gun safe (RSC) last year. I ended up purchasing one from Sturdy Safe and am completely satisfied with my purchase. The owner of Sturdy Safe (Terry) sold me on his RSC after a long conversation with him on the phone but I was actually sold prior to the phone call from all of the positive comments I had read from satisfied owners. There is no doubt in my mind that he knows what he's talking about and I have been an engineer in the metal's industry for 20 years now so I feel I'm pretty good at recognizing when a person really understands metals and metal fabrication.

Sturdy's standard safe uses 7 ga steel (unlike most companies that use 10,11 or even as thin as 12ga) on the shell and 3/8" steel on the door. For not much more money, you can have the door reinforced with an additional torch resistant stainless steel plate to help defend the locking mechanism. The sides can also be double plated to provide extra thickness to add some additional time for someone breaking in.

They use high temperature ceramic wool that is rated to 2300 degrees to line their fire rated safes; this is as good as it gets in my opinion. The ceramic wool is designed for insulating furnaces so minimizing heat transfer is it's intended purpose instead of the use of gypsum board or porous concrete (yes both do the job to some extent but don't compare to ceramic wool.)

In my opinion, pound for pound and dollar for dollar, there is not a better gun 'safe' on the market. Check their website out for research even if you don't buy from them. Terry does give honest opinions on where typical safes are vulnerable to attacks. He even demonstrates these attacks on his own safes and doesn't hold back on the tests (it's pretty impressive to see his safe's door not fail with 11,000 Lbs of tension from a fork truck and two of the four dead bolts cut prior.)

The Amsec BF series is also a decent gun RSC for the money as has been mentioned previously in the thread. They sell a cheap Chinese made RSC which I think is their SF series; it is beyond me why a company would sell such an inferior product under their own name, it only detracts from their overall reputation IMO.

The last time I jumped in with my comments on gunsafes, I was accused of working for the company; see how it goes this time.

[a1abdj]

Sturdy also makes a decent safe for the money. I would still place the BF series above it, but the Sturdy can be bought for less money, minus the fireproofing. This is a great option for those that do not need fire protection.

They use high temperature ceramic wool that is rated to 2300 degrees to line their fire rated safes; this is as good as it gets in my opinion. The ceramic wool is designed for insulating furnaces so minimizing heat transfer is it's intended purpose instead of the use of gypsum board or porous concrete (yes both do the job to some extent but don't compare to ceramic wool.)

Until safe manufacturers start getting UL listings on safes with ceramic insulations, I'm not 100% sold. Like gypsum, ceramic insulations were designed for one use, and are being used for another. These ceramics do in fact stop heat transfer, but are usually used to keep a lot of heat inside of a small space from escaping into a large space. In terms of insulating a safe, you're trying to do just the opposite.

It may very well work, but I am not aware of any UL fire rated safe that uses ceramics as its primary insulator. The "concrete" types of fill material have been proven very effective, and have been used for safe construction since the mid 1800s. Modern science has improved it, and most UL listed safes use some form of it as their primary insulation.

The Amsec BF series is also a decent gun RSC for the money as has been mentioned previously in the thread. They sell a cheap Chinese made RSC which I think is their SF series; it is beyond me why a company would sell such an inferior product under their own name, it only detracts from their overall reputation IMO.

Although I agree to a great extent, it's just the way businesses are today. Most people don't recognize the name AMSEC when it comes to gun safes. However, AMSEC is one of the largest safe manufacturers in the US. The gun safes they sell are just a very small portion of their overall line.

Just like the gun safes, they import a number of other types of safes as well. Their US made safes are higher quality, and sell for a higher price.

The last time I jumped in with my comments on gunsafes, I was accused of working for the company; see how it goes this time.

I won't believe you work for them unless you post photos of you modeling one of their safes.

[KChen986]

Found a freight damaged AMSEC with minor cosmetic scuffs and ONE part on the top of the safe where the steel skin is broken:





$999 + $409 shipped:

Worth the buy?

[a1abdj]

$999 + $409 shipped:

That will buff right out.

For the +/- $800 savings, I would say go for it. The black texture finishes are pretty easy to touch up. You will have to fill those gouges with some spotting putty first, but you should be able to make it look pretty good for about $10 and an hour or two of your time.

[KChen986]

a1a,

Just sprung for the Amsec listed above. Wanted to personally thank you for the information you put not just here, but on all the other 'safe' threads that you put excellent information on. (THR).

Thanks to all for all the excellent suggestions everyone. I priced out the Sturdy, but because I found that discounted Amsec, I sprung for that (and saved myself half a grand).

[JonnyP]

+1 for Sturdy.

I couldn't be happier with mine. Built to commercial standards with 7 ga steel and fire lining. Customer service outstanding. I think it was an extra $50 to deliver to my door, then a neighbor helped me move it into place as it weighs about 850 lbs.

Recommend you give them a try.

[Adirondack]

Congratulation KChen986, sounds like you got a good deal.

[1goodshot]

I think you did the right thing. You will out grow your safe soon enough and will have money left to get a 2nd 1.

[Btn]

Am I the only one who is troubled by these pictures? I was thinking of getting an Amsec BF but after seeing this picture I am having second thoughts. It looks like the steel was pulled back like the lid on a can of tuna!

[a1abdj]

Am I the only one who is troubled by these pictures? I was thinking of getting an Amsec BF but after seeing this picture I am having second thoughts. It looks like the steel was pulled back like the lid on a can of tuna!

Don't be alarmed.

I'm sure you're aware of the kind of damage a 5 or 8 pound sledge hammer can cause when swung in a 4' arc. Now imagine a 1,000 pound safe falling from 5' up. Steel will bend, or in the event it hits something harder than itself, puncture.

If you want a safe that will not do this, there are several companies that offer 1" plate walls. They cost a bit more than the AMSEC though.

[Btn]

Does Amsec offer the option to add additional protection to parts of the safe? I plan on having mine in the corner of my basement and another safe bolted on the side of it. Therefore only the front and top will be exposed.

[a1abdj]

Does Amsec offer the option to add additional protection to parts of the safe? I plan on having mine in the corner of my basement and another safe bolted on the side of it. Therefore only the front and top will be exposed.

Not all gun safe companies, but most real safe companies (including AMSEC), and some gun safe companies do offer custom work. In your case, it doesn't sound like you'll need any additional protection.

Tops of safes are rarely attacked. In fact, the door is the most often attacked even though the bodies are the weakest. If you have the safe positioned so that only the door and the top are exposed, you're already in a very good position.