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Old January 7, 2010, 06:04 PM   #1
tsigmon
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Appleseed Target Size

I have starting reading about the Appleseed shooting / marksmanship program and can't find answers to some questions I have on their web site. They say the use a 500 yard target reduced in size to be shot at 25 meters and I can't find the demensions of either one . Also the use of a tube magazine is not recomemded because of time required to reload . If anyone has particpated in one of these shoots and has some information or can direct me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
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Old January 7, 2010, 06:31 PM   #2
azredhawk44
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Here we go:

Appleseed teaches a Rifleman to control the "Rifleman's quarter mile", or 500 yards.

The typical enemy target (in the case of Appleseed, a British Redcoat from 1775) has approximately a 20" torso target area. At 500 yards, that is a 4 minute of angle target.

1 MOA is 1" at 100 yards, or 5" at 500 yards. Moving inwards, it is 1/2 an inch at 50 yards or 1/4 inch at 25 yards.

The AQT (Army Qualification Test) used by Appleseed as a standard of Rifleman proficiency, has 4 stages. 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. A perfect score is 250 points. Best I've ever witnessed is a 242, best I've ever done is a 232. 210 is the "Rifleman" standard.

The bulk of an Appleseed will be spent at 25 meters using targets printed at reduced size to simulate 100/200/300/400 yard shooting. Factors left out with simulated targets are wind drift and ballistic drop, which are advanced factors that a competent shooter can either figure out on his own for his particular load, or obtain further instruction. Appleseed teaches the fundamentals to keep your shots inside of a 4 MOA target area.

The 100 yard target is about 8.5" wide at 25 meters, the 200 yard targets are 4.25" wide, the 300 yard targets are 2.75" wide and the 400 yard targets are 2" wide.

Each hit on target is scored as a 5, 4, 3 or 0 points. To score a Rifleman score, each of the 40 hits must average a score of 4.2. (I know, if you do the math, 40*4.2 = 168, not 210. Stage 4 is multiplied by 2. You'll understand once you run an AQT, it's confusing to explain)

The 1" squares used for many of the drills in a weekend are the 500 yard potential target (minus ballistic drop and windage). The instructor will talk about these issues, but actual shooting at real distance is dependent on the range having these facilities available. Many ranges simply don't have that type of distance available, or scheduling conflicts with other shooting disciplines make it impossible to use the range.
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Old January 7, 2010, 06:43 PM   #3
azredhawk44
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Forgot about tube mags.

We have very specific line commands to keep everyone safe. One of them is "Do not load until given the load command."

Shooters may "prep" magazines at any time, meaning they can have a full magazine in their hands... they just can't stick it in the receiver of the rifle until they hear "LOAD!"

So, when we shout "LOAD!" then the line is rattling with mag insertions and bolts slamming shut. Except the guy with the tube mag, who's inserting them one at a time.

A couple work-arounds:

Ever hear of a Spee-D-Loader? It's a magazine charger for model 60's and Remington nylons.

Another option is McDonalds and Wendy's straws. Any fast food straw that is really thick, like for a milkshake. These will hold 8 or 10 cartridges, IIRC. Then you can dump them in to the mag tube quickly all at once.

But... the model 60 and other tube mags don't allow for the shooter to do a magazine change as some of the stages of the AQT require. For instance, stage 2 has you shooting 2 rounds, going empty, then reloading with 8 rounds, with a net effect of 5 rounds per target, in 55 seconds.

Marlin 60's are tricky for this for two reasons:
-You've gotta eject that mag plunger to reload 8 quickly, and it has to come all the way out to use a Spee-D-Loader or straw;
-You have your hand in front of the muzzle on a live firing line.
-Even if you bring the muzzle back behind the firing line, there's 20+ other people even with the firing line and you just brought an uncleared rifle behind them, pointed downrange. Unsafe.

So, we have Marlin 60 and similar shooters load 11 into the tube and manually eject 1 round in order to deliberately break shooting position like a magazine change would cause.

There's other trades/checks/balances involved with tube mags that you could start an entire internet forum war over, but I think I covered the basics of it from an Appleseed perspective.

Last edited by azredhawk44; January 7, 2010 at 06:49 PM.
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Old January 8, 2010, 05:07 AM   #4
chris in va
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I attended it 4 years ago.

Things I learned:

Bring a semiauto 22 with 10rd detachable mags. No bolt actions.

Sight your gun in at 25 yards BEFORE ATTENDING. Please.

Get the proper GI web sling. Skip the leather one.

Use an inflatable camping mat or similar pad.

Peep sights are a big plus, especially if your eyesight isn't all that.

Electronic muffs are very helpful for hearing range commands yelled from 50 yards away.

Do some stretching exercises before the class. On the second day its 'standing, sitting, prone...standing sitting prone'...all day.

Good luck, hope you do better hitting those little squares than I did.

Not mine, but gives you an idea.

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Old January 9, 2010, 05:07 PM   #5
Mike38
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I highly recommend attending an Appleseed. The 'story time' breaks are as interesting as the rifle training. It was amazing to hear what the founding Patriots had to go through to give us the United States of America.

I used a Ruger 10/22, but just about any detachable mag .22 rifle would work. Those 400 yard targets are very small at the end of the second day. My eye sight is not the best, (bi-focals) so I used a 1.5 power scope. I shot a 214 about mid way into the second day, so I made Rifleman. My son was using a loner 10/22 with Tech-Sights, which by far exceed the Ruger sights. He shot a 177, which was good being his first formal experiance. I bought him a new 10/22 for Christmas, four mags, web sling, and Tech sights. We are going to get him a Rifleman patch this year!
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Old January 10, 2010, 01:57 PM   #6
A/C Guy
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Two more items for the list of "Must Haves"
Elbow pads and knee pads.
They really help improve your scores on day 2 because you can drop from standing to prone and start shooting while the other shooters are scraping their knees and elbows raw.
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Old January 10, 2010, 04:38 PM   #7
horatioo
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If you cant see a bullet hole at 25 meters take some binoculars. It helped me to be able to see how I did on the shoots we didnt go down range and look every firing.
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Old January 12, 2010, 03:05 PM   #8
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I have attented two Appleseed shoots. what an excellent use of time and resources! I have learned a great deal from each one, and am planning to attend another in April of 2009.

all of the above responses offer good advice re attending one.
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Old January 17, 2010, 08:40 PM   #9
rdmallory
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From what I read they recommend two rifles

Is that for ranges that do have longer than 25 yard targets?

Doug
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Old January 18, 2010, 12:09 PM   #10
Vergeltung
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yeah. they make it so even the smaller ranges can host. but I have seen them do actually 400 yard shoots, etc.
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