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Old November 27, 2009, 11:57 PM   #26
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I live just west of Denver and my wife works on the 16th Street Mall near where these attacks happen. So, I have given this situation considerable thought.
Some people have been hit upon leaving the bar or club before they could even respond. Looking at some of the video tapes on the news (they played tapes from cameras planted in the area of previous attacks), it looks like there is no fiddling around or talking. It's not like the movies where there is some bantering, giving the good guys a chance to respond. As the gang passes by, one goblin grabs the victim from behind and they start pounding away.
Given that scenario I've seen in the video, I don't think I could even draw my Kahr MK9 or Ruger SP101 in time. It all happens so quickly.
Another factor to note is that they invariably attack a lone, young male late at night (after 1 am). My son has been at one of the clubs (not frequently, and only as designated driver), but always with several of his buddies, and they are out by midnight. So, it doesn't seem that any of us old geezers (or young geezers on the Firing Line, for that matter) would be targets.
One recent report that listed the charges on 21 of the thugs included a "race" charge (racially motivated attack) for some, particularly an 18 year old named Patton.

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Old November 28, 2009, 12:25 AM   #27
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Daugherty16, Thank you, thank you, and thank you! Of all the excellent advice I have read on this forum this is the best yet

“A much better strategy is not to be there at all. Remember the first rule - if you're going somewhere that you really "need" to carry your gun, don't go. I'm sure there are lots of nice suburban restaurants or better locations with brightly lit parking lots you can frequent.”
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Old November 28, 2009, 01:38 AM   #28
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For what its worth, and with no offense intended to anyone, I lived in the Denver area for over a decade and the 16th Street Mall in Denver is by no means a run down, inner city-type environment.

The 16th Street Mall is a reasonably fashionable, well-lit pedestrian promenade lined with upscale restaurants and shops. The clientele ranges from college students to professional atheletes, as well as other professionals from all walks of life - its definitely not a place you would expect to require artillery support after enjoying a few beers and a pizza.
Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case.
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Old November 28, 2009, 04:35 PM   #29
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That is true. 16th street is a well lit place with a fair amount of police presence. I cannot remember one time I was down there where I did not see at least one marked police car patroling the area. And yet crime still happens there. I think it could be a target area because it has such a nice feel to it. It is kept clean, has nice restaurants. Musicians are there almost every day. It is usually packed with people. Many of them look well enough off. I think the area draws people with money. Which in turn draws people looking to steal money.

No matter how well lit the place is, unless you pair an officer with every group, there is still going to be a chance of crime. Since most of the crimes I hear about in that area are violent, I prepare for the worst and try to avoid the place. Sometimes it just cannot be helped though.
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Old November 29, 2009, 03:20 PM   #30
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I've visited Denver a number of times and never felt threatened at all at the 16th Street Mall. It truly is a very nice place, so it shocked me to hear this type of violence occurs there with some regularity.

This is a perfect example for those antis that insist that their particular cozy hamlet is invulnerable to BGs.
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Old November 29, 2009, 04:48 PM   #31
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Be perfectly aware that todays gang punks are a totally different breed of cat than what most of us were used to back in our fighting days of youth. If they get you down, they will kick you as hard they can, several times. The result won't be a cut lip or a bloody nose. They will be trying to mess you up. Nitetrane98

..or kill you. The justice system's revolving door policy has not helped us with this problem. Chances are pretty good that many in the pack have been through the system multiple times already.

If you manage to get the drop on them, if there are 5 of them chances are good they will all try to outdo the other in who can display the biggest show of bravado. They will likely try to call your bluff. "Wachu gonna do shoot us?" Nitetrane98

These animals have you cornered, know that you are armed, and still wish to beat your head in or worse. No choice is left. Mr. Loudmouth goes down immediately, and his friends who aren't in the process of setting a land speed record away from you go down next.
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth.” Ronald Reagan

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Old November 29, 2009, 04:59 PM   #32
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In this case, as I mentioned before, there is no bantering that goes on. If there are any comments, there are racial or ethnic insults made only to distract you while you get sucker-punched. Scenarios like the cute one where William Shatner says something on TV like ..."watch, wallet...bang, knee, bang foot..." as he shoots the assailant after a brief discussion are just for the TV and movies now. The current crop of gang bangers ambush you and you are down before you know what hit you.

16th Street Mall is, indeed, a pleasant place during the day and most of the evening. However we become cautious after dark, like we would be at almost any location. If my wife has to work late, someone from her building will escort her to the indoor parking lot.

These attacks happen near clubs and bars after 1 am.

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Old November 30, 2009, 12:00 AM   #33
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Words... are words. No one can provoke you, if you don't allow yourself to be provoked. I have actually 'laughed' at some when they've tried it..... or started telling jokes. Anything that is not the reaction they expect, is often good. But, any attempt to actually attack will be dealt with according to the situation, numbers, and the threat.
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Old November 30, 2009, 12:47 AM   #34
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I lived in Columbus GA in the mid 80's. You didn't walk around by yourself anywhere on a payday - because the local thugs knew it was payday. Like mentioned above - group attacks with zero warning as soon as the victim was in swinging distance.
If I were walking anywhere, at anytime of day, and I saw a suspicious group or person - I'm changing my direction, no way I'm walking near and I don't give a ____ what they think. If they pursue - I'm sure of their intention. If they don't pursue (false alarm) all I'm out is a little further to walk.
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Old November 30, 2009, 04:45 AM   #35
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As the gang passes by, one goblin grabs the victim from behind and they start pounding away.
Coming out of bars which are off limits for concealed carry? If so thank the politicians for empowering these criminals.

Being jumped from behind is tougher scenario than I was envisioning but it's no foregone conclusion of defeat as far as I am concerned. I don't do bars and I don't allow strangers within arms reach. Especially if they look like no goods.
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Old November 30, 2009, 09:08 AM   #36
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In CO your allowed to CC in bars, provided your not drinking alcohol. I regularly practice CC in bars and like establishments. But I'm always drinking water.

I am also not at a bar downtown at one in the morning. For that matter I'm out of downtown no later than 2300
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Old December 1, 2009, 11:16 PM   #37
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These "sucker punch video" gangs have been growing exponentially since youtube came about.

The MO is usually to engage the individual face to face under the guise of directions, time, perhaps pandhandling; something less-than-overtly threatening.

While this is going on, you are sucker-punched from an area outside of your peripheral vision, or directly behind.

The other one i've seen is passing you on the street without any incident, and then charging you from behind and sucker punching you after you've passed the group without a thought.

You really need to put some distance between you and the diversions and keep your head on a swivel to prevent against this type of thing. Shooting thugs just because they're thugs and talking to you in a smart-alec tone will never fly in a court of law..... you'll go for murder 2 at least. Better yet, spot the threat far in advance by being in "condition yellow" and avoid groups of thugs or bratty kids altogether.....

It's not just gang members, which are easy to ID. The problem is that regular kids are doing this for "fun" also. I avoid groups of kids, and I profile. Not sorry to say. Interesting to see what others do to avoid this type of encounter.

Last edited by sonick808; December 1, 2009 at 11:25 PM.
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Old December 1, 2009, 11:20 PM   #38
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Daughtery: It was demonstrated in my CCW class that 7 yards can be closed by your average shmuck in 1.8 seconds. Given that you have to subtract reaction time (.8-?s) , you are pretty much screwed if you haven't drawn your weapon at 20 feet...... it was quite an eye-opening demonstration. Even if you do draw and connect with legitemate shots, they aren't likely to drop the attacker on the spot. This is where the discussion of the pelvis shot came into play. Big target, good chance of taking their legs out from under them. Heart and head aren't guaranteed to stop anything unless you take out the medulla oblongata.

A 74 year old woman with a recent hip replacement closed the 21ft. distance with a rubber knife in hand in our class in 2.1 seconds. I was astonished.

Last edited by sonick808; December 1, 2009 at 11:30 PM.
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Old December 6, 2009, 11:41 PM   #39
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Got me thinking on the choice of firearm,,,,if they are in packs, and many times are, the old standby revolver makes you tremendously undergunned???

Time for more training!!!
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:31 AM   #40
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Words... are words. No one can provoke you, if you don't allow yourself to be provoked.
It's been pointed out a couple of times, at least, that these guys don't provoke you. Words they use are a tactic designed to to distract you just enough so you don't see the assault that immediately follows.

With regards to not allowing yourself to be provoked, then, where applicable, we'd all agree.
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Old December 19, 2009, 05:42 AM   #41
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A hit, then grab your valuables, knock you down, kick you, even with sneakers, is designed to hurt, and maybe a big payday like plus $100.00 in cash.

We live a matter of yards from a road that has the name (local description) of Restaurant Row. In the Sheriffs area, not the City's, you do see the marked units around, and most likely U/C about as well.

Shoulder to shoulder eating Establishments, lots of well lit parking immediately outside.

We have lived here for 6 years, I am a wide awake kind of person, in the past 6 years, once, I have seen 3 young black males, underwear showing, walking around our local Publix (Supermarket) not shopping, no baskets, no carts, just looking. Shoppers are mixed racially, and age wise, these 3 stood out.

I parked myself, with a half full shopping cart to watch, two other men did the same, the 3 left? What was that about? No idea.

My lovely Wife and I are older, me 74, her ? not saying, you know how Woman are about age! Pancake Breakfast once a week, Supper out every two or three weeks, that one pucker factor incident in 6 years?

Not such a dangerous local would you say? But I go armed every day, and I am good with my Glock 19, complete with TruGlow sights.

And I chat to who ever whilst out and about, but you will not see me in a bar at 2AM! We are in bed at 2AM. Our Jeep is in the Garage at 2AM.

The dynamics of a City change drastically after 1AM, drive a mile away, same change. Small group of young men, walking close, 5PM, smile, make eye contact "How u doin" say I, never had a problem. No I am not little, not massively overweight, and walk good.

Merry Christmas all.
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