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Old August 30, 2009, 12:35 PM   #26
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I am curious! Does this rule or law apply to a police officer off duty or retired? Does it circumvent H.R. 218, the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act?

And I agree with you, don't ask dont tell, concealed is concealed, if some one knows your carrying, it isnt concealed. Even my wife forgets until she hears the clunking in the washer cause she didnt check my pants.

But for the First Question, ref HR218. There was a court case, about HR 218 in conflict with state laws. SD tried to charge a visiting cop from another state for having a gun in a bar. I wont go into the shooting part or dispute with a MC gang member, thats been hashed over in all the gun sites. But regarding the bill itself, the cop was in a bar with his pistol, SD law prohibits carrying a gun in liquer establishments. (The cop wasnt drunk). The jugde ruled that the word NOTWITHSTANDING, means just that, or WITHOUT REGARD FOR STATE LAW. In other words state laws dont apply. HR218 does mention the officer carrying can not be intoxicated, and this cop wasn't. There was no question that the shooting was ligit, they just tried to go after the cop for having a gun in a bar.

I dont know if SD has a law require you to inform peope when you visit, WY dosnt. But the above would apply there too based on that case.
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Old August 30, 2009, 02:29 PM   #27
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Thanks for the info kraigwy. Good to know!
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Old August 30, 2009, 02:44 PM   #28
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Assuming it doesn't fall out of your pants or holster I guess it would be alright. But how funny would that be if you had a revolver slide down your pants mid covo?
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Old August 31, 2009, 06:08 PM   #29
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Why would you feel the need to carry to a friend’s house? What are you worried about?
Actually, pax, the question from Ammosphere has a connection to my problem of getting permission. Within the past few weeks I’ve hung out with assorted folks, including a preacher, teacher and drug dealer. I’m not very concerned about the preacher, because generally they are a trustworthy bunch, choosing to fleece folks only by persuasion and passing the plate. I know where I stand with the teacher from the far left side because I heard her say many times, “A handgun is only for shooting PEOPLE!” But, hey, I can’t just dump my relationship with her; I wouldn’t even be here if she hadn’t carried me for nine months and gone through the pain of labor to land me on planet earth. The drug dealer is a different story. (In case you are wondering, as a Bible thumper, I was “selling” not buying.)
I can backtrack to last November to answer Ammosphere’s question. My wife and I were visiting a good friend, when in comes her 18 year old daughter with three boys in tow. All four of the young folks were users, appeared to have partaken of substances prior to their arrival, and the gal’s dealer boy friend is strongly suspected of breaking into vehicles to support his life style (making the “leave handgun in the car” a poor choice). I was never worried as nothing happened at that time to cause worry; however, the potential existed for a problem (side note: About six months ago, the daughter and drug dealer were involved in an encounter in which the other “team” had brought baseball equipment. The dealer was in the hospital a few days. The 18 year old daughter, who was also beat up, made a poor choice in responding to that conflict. She was recently booked for DWI, drug possession along with being a minor carrying a concealed weapon (handgun) in a federal park. That will certainly ruin a camping trip! Pax, I hope you don’t string me up for the long winded answer, but the brief history lays a little background for the original question of –
“How to ask permission?”
The mom is one of our best friends; therefore, we will be in her home and I will need to get permission if I’m to carry while visiting.
While I understand some folks choose to only hang with those of like mind, I won’t be going that route - conformity can be boring, too many minds like my mind might be scary and I choose to be engaged in society because I believe society can be changed one person at a time. That belief leads me to associate with all types of folks, some of whom may vehemently disagree with me in the subject of firearms in general. If I’m going to carry habitually, then AR law indicates I must have permission to enter their private residence while carrying. There appear to be a few recommendations that I conceal and say nothing; however, I can’t stay within the law by following a “don’t ask, don’t tell” mode of operation.
Perhaps my original question was to general or maybe I should have given a few more details.
1. I’ve never carried concealed, so this is uncharted territory for me. The State of Arkansas is not making it easy to transition to concealed carry given my current lifestyle, which I happen to enjoy.
2. To the best of my knowledge, none of my friends or acquaintances carries concealed, so it might be uncharted for them also. How will they react? And are there ways to mitigate a negative reaction from them?
3. Few folks would even suspect I could shoot a handgun, much less actually own one. Surprise! For extra affect I now get to ask them, “Can I come in and sit on your couch with my hidden handgun?”
4. I’m not liking the mental picture of asking my conservative cohorts, but I’m really in a quandary about the more liberal clan. Perhaps my question should have zeroed in on asking permission of an antigun person or one with unknown leanings. Is it a waste of time or worth the effort in those cases?
It seems like I’ve got a heap of homework to take care of before the permit arrives.
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Old September 1, 2009, 01:12 AM   #30
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Last edited by thesecond; September 1, 2009 at 03:00 AM.
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Old September 1, 2009, 08:19 AM   #31
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Host a party to celebrate your new CPL. Send out invites.

"Dear Friends,
You are cordially invited to a party to help me celebrate the arrival of my Concealed Pistol License, at which time I will begin to exercise my Second Ammendment rights and responsibilities as a US citizen."

With this invitation, each recipient has been informed that you carry, in writing, so your legal obligations have been met. You can reword it as you see fit.
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:45 PM   #32
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The drug dealer is a different story. (In case you are wondering, as a Bible thumper, I was “selling” not buying.)
The cross or the sword eh?

Would you refuse to proselytize if you couldn't wear a gun?
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Old September 1, 2009, 02:35 PM   #33
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Some people choose to associate with all kinds of questionable individuals and feel somewhat comfortable going into there houses! Then they feel the need to provide a very long winded explanation as to there behavior.
To each his or her own but use some common sense!
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:35 AM   #34
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Got a kick out of the following from poptime:
Host a party to celebrate your new CPL. Send out invites."Dear Friends,
You are cordially invited to a party to help me celebrate the arrival of my Concealed Pistol License…”,
but was wondering if that would make my new permit into a Revealed Pistol License? And should I pass out the “You Have Permission to Pack in My Home” sign-off page at the start of the party or the end?
Buzzcook: The cross or the sword eh?
Actually, Buzz, the sword ain’t been working to good lately, ergo, the reason for the upgrade. I guess my sword looks more like a pen knife. To answer the question “would you..?” I’d say, have been for over thirty w/o heavy artillery.
Trigger Finger: Yeah, I’m long winded; seems to naturally happen to some folks as they get older - “don’t ask the old geezer or you’ll never get him to shut up!” The point of the November story was the arrival of the druggies was unexpected (I neglected to mention that said daughter lived with grandparents). Common sense, alertness and “don’t be/do stupid...” should be required for anyone touching a firearm or edged implement.
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:28 AM   #35
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I expect someone will eventually wonder why this Arkansas ignoramus doesn’t just ask range buddies how they handle the AR regulations. Well, I shoot at a private range, The Creek Bank, and have never popped a cap at a “real” range in the state. An internet search shows the nearest gun club is 56 miles away while the nearest public range is 78 miles. Well that’s a bummer! While I like the dues/fees of $0.00/year at The Creek Bank and can shoot there any time that the farmer is not working the fields, I may need to make a pilgrimage to a real range.
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:28 PM   #36
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I should think anyone as . . . loquacious as you would have no trouble finding words to ask!

That requirement for affirmative permission to enter does create some potential for weirdness. I would definitely try to get the okay ahead of time, maybe offering the briefest of explanations that you have a permit, you're an upstanding citizen, taxpayer, thoroughly trained in martial arts, a lazer-accurate shooter, and well-mannered and darned good lookin', too.
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
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Old September 2, 2009, 04:32 PM   #37
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I live in SC and would face this dilemma if I had any friends. (that's a joke) I actually have two. (not a joke) Both are staunch advocates of the second amendment, both know I carry and they carry as well.

Other than that, I don't just wind up at people's houses unexpectedly. If I'm invited to an event , and I know them well enough to actually go, I generally know their feelings on CCW. If I think it's going to be sketchy, I don't go. If there is a chance of sketchiness, I carry discretely. If there is little or no chance of sketchiness and I know they wouldn't approve, I don't carry.
To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.
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Old September 2, 2009, 07:07 PM   #38
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I love the idea of a party announcement!

Serf' I'm dealing with my own set of weirdnesses while waiting for my permit too. It's a mind shift, isn't it?
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:31 PM   #39
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have a permit, you're an upstanding citizen, taxpayer, thoroughly trained in martial arts, a lazer-accurate shooter, and well-mannered and darned good lookin', too
Well I qualified on one out of list of seven – I paid my taxes. Maybe Mr. James will give me a few points for being a voting citizen, reading a chapter or two on judo, accurate out to 3 feet and only using my personal car keys to clean my ears should get a point or two on the manners target.
Lockedcj7 weighs in with Excellent Advice from one who lives in another state with weird laws like AR. Thanks!
Kayla: Hyperspace mind shifting. How are things working out for you in dealing with friends and family? Have you been talking with folks?

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Old September 4, 2009, 06:07 PM   #40
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This is a thought provoking thread! CCW is very uncommon here in California (most parts). Very hard to get if you are not "connected".

So, at the annual poker game my high school buddies get together for, the subject of handguns came up. Someone turns to the deputy chief of police and asks "So, are you carrying?". His response "it's out in the car". Probably true, but possibly just a soothing response. I was not carrying. I still don't know if "carrying" would be welcome in this group. Next poker night is end of September, so I'm going to ask specifically.

And, everyone cross your fingers, California may have to allow CCW in the not too distant future (pending legal cases). I think I'll do that "send out announcements" thing when/if I can score one.
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Old September 17, 2009, 09:22 AM   #41
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If yesterday is any indicator, then the asking permission thing is going to be interesting. I thought I’d start by asking a good friend if I could carry in his home. I picked him as the first one to talk with because we eat lunch together at my house on the average of twice a week, he’s an avid hunter, highly trained martial arts instructor, he knows I’ve applied for concealed carry and I figured that he would be totally for concealed carry since we’ve had several previous discussion during the past few months.
Surprise! When it actually came down to me carrying in his home, he said if it was just him, his wife and daughter it was ok; however, if his young nephews or nieces were there, he would prefer that I wouldn’t carry because, “…accidents can happen, you know.”
Now that’s strange reasoning in my opinion. If you’re concerned about “accidents”, why would you endanger yourself, wife and daughter?
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Old September 20, 2009, 09:15 PM   #42
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We handle this very directly.

When visiting friends, my wife just looks at me and screams "HE'S GOT A GUN!" at the top of her lungs. The friends make a weird face, assume they missed the joke, and let us in.

Problem solved.

Last edited by Mr. Davis; September 20, 2009 at 09:37 PM.
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Old September 20, 2009, 09:46 PM   #43
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direct is best but if you insist...

you just might ask..."Can I bring my gun with me I'd really love to show it to you." (stated with lots of enthusiasm, of course)
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Old September 20, 2009, 10:21 PM   #44
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Whenever I do something that is not the right thing and someone else observes it, then it oftentimes gets back to others.

Anytime you do something that is against the law in front of someone else then expect to be told upon even if its people who you consider are "friends". The best advice is to follow the exact wording of the law. If you do not follow it, then someone can easily walk into the police station and sign a complaint against you.

Its best to inform them outright, show them the pistol and ask for permission to bring it inside. If you do anything less then you risk the police being called or a complaint being signed against you. The police will then let the judge sort it all out and oftentimes the judge is a lot less understanding then the police.

The best advice is not to bring it into a person's house who does not know you well and you shouldnt be entering a person's house unless you know them very well.

Last edited by JohnH1963; September 20, 2009 at 10:28 PM.
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Old September 21, 2009, 01:34 PM   #45
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It's a stupid law. But the last poster hit the nail right on the head... if you don't know them very well, don't carry it in. If you know them well, they understand how you feel about guns and probably know you carry.

I'd never advise someone to break the law, but our law here in Arkansas is STUPID, and no one is actually going to "announce" they have a gun at the front door.
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Old September 21, 2009, 03:48 PM   #46
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And I rather strongly disagree with the "show it to them".

A gun in a holster is safe. A gun being handled is not. If it is a concealed carry piece, leave it concealed.

New thought: what about when you are real estate shopping? The owner is (usually) not even present. How do you ask for permission?
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Old September 21, 2009, 08:17 PM   #47
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You can't I read that you can't carry there legally. Pretty straight forward.

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Old September 22, 2009, 02:14 AM   #48
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Being that I carry pretty much on a daily basis, and that I am a hunter, and "outdoorsman", my friends pretty much know who I am.

Our state requires that you have permission to enter someone else's home when CCing.

Friends know that I walk, hike, travel, etc... CCing. (Note: the use of the term friends.) Therefore, no problems talking about bring a CCW into their homes; verbal permission granted.

On the occasion that I don't know them that well and they invite me in, I will stand outside the doorway and say something to the effect of, "Well, I was out hiking and have a handgun on me." (In a lot of Alaska, people do carry guns when out hiking - pretty normal behavior; possibly a bit different than say Anchorage, but can still use the same line there too.) Then they have their opportunity to decide where they want to take it from there.

So, I don't see it as that much of a problem. When I think about it in reverse, do I want an relative stranger to come into my house carrying without my knowledge? Not really. Especially if I find out, by observation or someone else telling me, before that person talks to me about it.

I personally have a very hard time leaving any firearm unattended in a vehicle. On the rare occasion that I must, I always take the mag (or rounds) with me; leaving it unloaded, and usually locked in a case out of sight, locked in the car.

I generally agree that concealed means "concealed"; however, common courtesy when entering another person's castle to let them know, and then they can decide.
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