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Old March 23, 2009, 01:53 PM   #76
Evan Thomas
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,188
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
1. A full blooded set of Americans go nuts, like the dude who shot up a church recently to get the 'liberals'.

2. This set duplicates 9/11 and takes over 4 jets.

3. This time we get some warning, maybe 20 minutes.

4. They intend to crash into the Sears Tower, Hancock tower, Austin Capitol and the Statue of Libery.

Is it law enforcement only - can the USAF do anything?
Wow, Glenn... a reductio ad nine-elevenum!

Surely the original wording of Sec. 333 of the Insurrection Act of 1807 (which I believe is currently in force, after the '07 changes were repealed) gives the President the authority to order the jets shot down:
Interference with State and Federal law
The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—

(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection...
I think "insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy" would cover either of the political or the economic scenarios you posit. And it's surely a scenario with which state law-enforcement authorities would be unable to cope. (Could the Air National Guard respond inside the 20 minute time frame? One doubts...)

As to your last question, can the USAF do anything? (my italics) -- one can only hope they're better prepared than they were in '01.

So that's what we are all excited about - that securing a traffic light leads to tyranny but we had the Patriot Act and citizens declared enemy combatants - blah, blah?
Some of us can get pretty excited about both. The Patriot Act is a complete horror show, and ought to be repealed, but that doesn't mean I'm not also concerned to see active-duty troops used (yeah, illegally, I think that point's been made) in even the most benign law-enforcement role, as I don't think it's a good idea to accustom people to seeing them in that role. It's the thin end of a wedge stuck into a slippery slope, or words to that effect.

C'mon, Glenn, you must've had to teach systematic desensitization -- you know how that stuff works...
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
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Old March 23, 2009, 02:27 PM   #77
Glenn E. Meyer
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 18,803
I'm still not convinced that the original OP is time to go to Condition Slippery Slope Red Alert. I think the air terrorism example demonstrates that in purely criminal enterprises we would expect the military to act against WMD situations.

Minor violations can be fixed later. Wide scale violations of Posse C. - probably mean they are planned and we have a different problem.
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
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Old March 23, 2009, 03:23 PM   #78
Evan Thomas
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,188
I'm still not convinced that the original OP is time to go to Condition Slippery Slope Red Alert.

Minor violations can be fixed later.
Works for me -- as long as they do get fixed, and people don't lose sight of the fact that they are violations... But Condition Yellow Wedge-tip is appropriate, I think.

And I am a bit shocked to find myself lining up with the shiny-metal-hat crowd on any issue, but there it is...

"When they came for the conspiracy theorists, I remained silent..."
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

Last edited by Evan Thomas; March 23, 2009 at 03:29 PM.
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Old March 23, 2009, 04:06 PM   #79
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Join Date: January 28, 2006
Posts: 1,403
USASA, thanks. For some reason I see this as another Title 10 vs 32 battle just like the example, but it doesn't seem to register with anyone that way. Maybe because its so far over the top that even a 5th grader could make that decision right.

Same legal issue. Same illegal activity. But because it didn't contain a law enforcement entity (other than the sheepish sheriff), guess I am in left field.

Caddo 76, base, gear, stop, right.
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Old March 25, 2009, 05:53 PM   #80
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Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
I people want to worry about something, try this.

(As passed by the House on August 21, 1994 and subsequently approved
by the Senate on August 25, 1994)

This is still in there as far as I know.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."
- Milton Friedman (


(a) DEFINITIONS.-In this section-

"major violent crime or drug-related emergency" means an occasion or
instance in which violent crime, drug smuggling, drug trafficking, or drug
abuse violence reaches such levels, as determined by the President, that
Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and
capabilities to save lives, and to protect property and public health and

"State" means a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of
Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam,
and the Northern Mariana Islands.

a major violent crime or drug-related emergency exists throughout a
State or a part of a State, the President may declare the State or part
of a State to be a violent crime or drug emergency area and may take
appropriate actions
authorized by this section.


(1) IN GENERAL.-A request for a declaration designating an area to be a
violent crime or drug emergency area shall be made, in writing, by the chief
executive officer of a State or local government, respectively (or in the
case of the District of Columbia, the mayor), and shall be forwarded to the
Attorney General in such form as the Attorney General may by regulation
require. One or more cities, counties, States, or the District of Columbia
may submit a joint request for designation as a major violent crime or drug
emergency area under this subsection.

(2) FINDING.-A request made under paragraph (1) shall be based on a
written finding that the major violent crime or drug-related emergency is of
such severity and magnitude that Federal assistance is necessary to ensure
an effective response to save lives and to protect property and public health
and safety.

(d) IRRELEVANCY OF POPULATION DENSITY.-The President shall not limit
declarations made under this section to highly populated centers of violent
crime or drug trafficking, drug smuggling, or drug use, but shall also
consider applications from governments of less populated areas where the
magnitude and severity of such activities is beyond the capability of the
State or local government to respond.

(e) REQUIREMENTS.-As part of a request for a declaration under this
section, and as a prerequisite to Federal violent crime or drug emergency
assistance under this section, the chief executive officer of a State or
local government shall-

(1) take appropriate action under State or local law and furnish
information on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have
been or will be committed to alleviating the major violent crime- or
drug-related emergency;

(2) submit a detailed plan outlining that government's short- and
long-term plans to respond to the violent crime or drug emergency,
specifying the types and levels of Federal assistance requested and
including explicit goals (including quantitative goals) and timetables; and

(3) specify how Federal assistance provided under this section is intended
to achieve those goals.

(f) REVIEW PERIOD.-The Attorney General shall review a request submitted
pursuant to this section, and the President shall decide whether to declare a
violent crime or drug emergency area, within 30 days after receiving the

(g) FEDERAL ASSISTANCE.-The President may-

(1) direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize
its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including
personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, financial assistance, and
managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local
assistance efforts; and

(2) provide technical and advisory assistance, including communications
support and law enforcement-related intelligence information.


(1) IN GENERAL.-Federal assistance under this section shall not be
provided to a violent crime or drug emergency area for more than 1 year.

(2) EXTENSION.-The chief executive officer of a jurisdiction may apply to
the President for an extension of assistance beyond 1 year. The President
may extend the provision of Federal assistance for not more than an additional
180 days.

(i) REGULATIONS.-Not later than 120 days after the date of enactment of
this Act, the Attorney General shall issue regulations to implement this

(j) NO EFFECT ON EXISTING AUTHORITY.-Nothing in this section shall
diminish or detract from existing authority possessed by the President or
Attorney General.
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

Last edited by jimpeel; March 25, 2009 at 06:01 PM.
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