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Old October 22, 2008, 11:20 AM   #26
Ricky B
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I agree that MOA performance is not needed. Have you taken deer at 200 yds with your 11-87? If so, that is another data point in favor of the contention that a shotgun is suitable for 200-yd hunting.

But even if a few hunters attempt such a shot under actual hunting conditions and succeed, I suspect that they are the outliers, data points on the flat slope on the outer edge of the bell curve of how hunters use slug guns.
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Old October 22, 2008, 04:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ricky B
I'll comment on the video, but first I'd like to add another data point to the discussion.

According to the same book I quoted from above:
First of all I suggest you get some real world experience.

What about accuracy in a slug gun? One-inch groups at 100 yards have been achieved by expert shooters with custom guns and saboted slugs under the right conditions. ... A slug gun and load that groups 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards is a real tack driver. [p. 123]
I would say this would be true 3-5 years ago, but is outdated now.

Minute-of-angle slugs and sulg guns--those that will shoot a 1-inch group at 100 yards--are extreme rarities, regardless of what you read in magazines. [pp. 130-31]
Again, out dated, and no longer true.
So MOA is possible, though at a reported 100 yds, not 200 yds.

Now about that video.

It's a bit peculiar, at least in terms of evidence, that the camera is behind the shooter as he chambers a cartridge, and then cuts to a close-up of the target as the slug hits home. Is what we are seeing the actual shot, or is it a "re-enactment" of something that was actually accomplished, just not at the time of the taping? Hard to say. But let's leave that to one side and assume that in any event it accurately represents what it purports to represent.
I included the video because I just happened to find it, and it represents the results others have been getting. I figured you would assume it was rigged regardless.

We don't know if the video represents what happens every time the slugs are fired at 100 yds or if there were many, many takes and only the best was shown. How much worse could other boxes shoot? I've had fliers and different boxes shoot wider, but you wouldn't see a 1MOA fluke and the normal be 12MOA

The shooter says that the shotgun was custom-chambered by Hastings to shoot the slug developed by Hastings. That there is literally no other 3-1/2" 20 ga. like that today. It's not clear whether this gun is offered by Hastings or is simply a proof-of-concept gun that is not for sale.
Here you just need to research more, the gun he was talking about is the new H&R Ultra Slug Hunter Chambered for 3.5" 20 gauge, smaller than a 12 giving better ballistic coefficiant, and longer shell putting more power behind it(basically put). You can find them for around $300.

But even if this gun is readily available, or others can duplicate its performance (a really big IF), there are still facts that undercut the contention that the video proves that a shotgun is a 200-yd hunting weapon.
Any firearm and person capable of decent groupings at any range is capable to take kills at that range. If someone doesn't know their firearm they should sell it because it is useless to them in the field.

The shots were taken at 100 yds with a sandbag (or lead shot) rest and over an open field with no vegetation that could possibly deflect the slug. It does not follow that a projectile that groups at X over 100 yds. will group at 2X at 200 yds. Certainly, that's true for handgun ammo. Bullseye competitors will often shoot a different load at the 25 yd line than at the 50 simply because the load that groups great at 25 falls apart at 50.
First of all, everyone sights in their firearm from the bench, it is how you know the true accuracy, if anyone is sighting in their firearm from off hand they are a moron. The shooter was showing the accuracy of it. That is what we are talking about here, a 458 Win Mag will deflect off of brush in the woods. You are trying to grasp on to extreme conditions here that would be the same for any firearm.

The shooter in the video says that they took six buffalo from 73 yds to 137 yds. He said nothing about taking game at 200 yds.
So? You seem to want to say that there is no way a person can shoot a deer beyond 100yrds, like there is this wall there. It is simple ballistics.

I will agree that it is conceivable that a particular gun and load might group 2" at 200 yds, but I suggest it is most unlikely. I further suggest that for hunting purposes, a slug gun should not be regularly used for game at 200 yds.
Again, you need to research more. Simply put, it is possible, and without buying a super custom or chance magic sabot gun, unless all the people I have heard from and seen all got a Magic Voodoo Slug guns from the factory.

If you manage to get MOA accuracy at 200 yds with a slug gun, I will salute you, and I wish you luck in your endeavor.
Ricky B,
Your argument rests on that we are lying, or that all of us sabot slug shooters got these rare magic sabot guns.

It just seems like you really have no intrest in learning here, you just want to hold on to your outdated beliefs.

The only thing that will change your mind is if you go buy one of these voodoo guns, and try it your self, or at least tag a long with a friend and shoot that one.

This is all simple ballistic science, not opinions.

I've had great results with mine, I have hunted with mine, and I know the capabilities of my Magic voodoo sabot gun. Also, I know others who have had better experiences with theirs. But for some reason you just want to keep your head in the sand here.

Maybe you live in a state that can hunt with rifles, and that is why you don't see the uses of using the new Sabotguns for hunting. Here I can only use a "shotgun" and appreciate that my hunting range has now been extended from 50yards to 200 and beyond if I get the chance test range work past 200yrds.

By the way, have you ever heard of Billy Dixon? A prime example of the capability of a man that knows his firearm.
" ...Said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it..."
"Your reality, sir, is lies and bladerdash, and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it whatsoever!"
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Old October 22, 2008, 04:42 PM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
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I agree that MOA performance is not needed. Have you taken deer at 200 yds with your 11-87?
I have not, I have hunted with the gun for just one year. I did take a deer at 110 yards last year using Core-Lokt Ultras. That in itself would have been a VERY long shot for a smooth bore gun, proving it's worth to me anyway. I would not attempt a shot at 200 yards with any gun without a sure rest and a calm animal. The likelihood of my ever attempting the shot is slim as I don't hunt in areas with 200 yard visibility most times but I want the capability if I have the chance.
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Old October 23, 2008, 12:29 PM   #29
Ricky B
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Just to avoid any confusion created by your post, I never said anyone was lying, and I never said that the demonstration was rigged.

I also never said it wasn't possible to shoot a deer beyond 100 yds with a slug gun. To the contrary, I posted a report of someone taking a deer at 191 yds.

You should rely on what is actually written and not on what you think the other guy is really thinking but hasn't said.

Since you have mischaracterized what I have said and, more important, mischaracterized me, this exchange has come to an end.
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