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Old October 2, 2008, 11:08 PM   #1
larvatus
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Shoot or Talk?

As Tuco told the corpse of his would-be assassin, "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." As I pointed out before, there's them that talk, there's them that shoot, and never the twain shall be one.

Over the past year I have been thinning out and upgrading my gun collection. I have sold guns online that ranged from a $750 S&W 1006 to a $7,500 SIG P210-L. Based on my experience, I would be very reluctant to buy another gun worth less than $2,000. That seems to be the point at which the value of the gun sufficiently exceeds the transaction costs of its acquisition to make its future sale or trade practicable. Below this point, the tire kickers tend to overwhelm the potential buyers.

I have enjoyed countless hours discussing guns with like-minded online personae. Through these discussions I have learned not to expect any return from my contributions. In keeping with Sayre 's Law, the intensity of debate tends to vary inversely with the value of its gravamen. That is why online debaters never convert to paying customers. Time is money. Anyone who can afford to waste your time is bound to come short in making up its value.

Next time someone engages you in a time-wasting dispute, think of him as Tuco's assailant. Cut him short by shooting. Don't talk.
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:04 AM   #2
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Whatever.
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Old October 3, 2008, 03:11 AM   #3
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Tu quoque...
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Old October 3, 2008, 03:28 AM   #4
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The basic problem with quoting Tuco is that he seems to always be the one at the end of a rope!!!

I am a shooter, not a collector or a seller. It always makes me chuckle when the cost of a gun is used as some measure of it's shoot-ability. Owning a sports car does not "by itself" make one a better driver. Paying $2,000 for a handgun will not make up for the sweat equity necessary to hit the X ring.

I do admire purdy firearms, but shooters come in many flavors and do not seem to have a fixed price.
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Old October 3, 2008, 07:02 AM   #5
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edit:
scratch that, its the i-net. very interesting thread, larvatus!
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Old October 3, 2008, 07:12 AM   #6
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Oh,shut up.
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Old October 3, 2008, 07:22 AM   #7
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visions of the uppity douchebag in that Harvard bar

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Old October 3, 2008, 07:53 AM   #8
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Let them eat cake, eh?
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Old October 3, 2008, 12:08 PM   #9
larvatus
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The basic problem with quoting Tuco is that he seems to always be the one at the end of a rope!!!
I've long since made peace with not being pretty like Blondie, nor ruthless like Angel Eyes. So Tuco it is.
Quote:
I am a shooter, not a collector or a seller. It always makes me chuckle when the cost of a gun is used as some measure of it's shoot-ability. Owning a sports car does not "by itself" make one a better driver. Paying $2,000 for a handgun will not make up for the sweat equity necessary to hit the X ring.
Not in and of itself, no doubt. But every bit of quality will help my performance. As to collecting, call it what you will, but some 10% of my net worth is tied up in guns. With another 20% vested in books, I am stuck with enough problems of mobility and liquidity. Every little bit of simplification helps.
Quote:
I do admire purdy firearms, but shooters come in many flavors and do not seem to have a fixed price.
I will make an allowance for shotguns. My favorite field gun is a plain Jane 1957 28" Winchester M12 that cost me $400, unfired. It could use a rib, but fancy wood with a black diamond would add nothing to my satisfaction. On the other hand, a 1953 Russian SKS carbine sitting in the back of my safe has proven itself an absolute drag. Yesterday I spent over an hour on the phone explaining its features to somebody who described himself as a potential buyer. As a result of this conversation, I came to realize that my life is too short to shoot ugly guns. Fortunately, it's a free country, so I don't have to.
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Old October 3, 2008, 12:17 PM   #10
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To a certain extent, I tend to agree with Larvatus. I want stuff thats the best and that I can shoot. My carry gun is set and when I shoot handguns, I generally shoot my BHP or my 210...so why do I have anyhting else?

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Old October 3, 2008, 12:33 PM   #11
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I generally shoot my BHP or my 210...so why do I have anyhting else?
C'mon, Wild... you know why.

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Old October 3, 2008, 12:54 PM   #12
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So you're saying that arguing on the internet is pointless, or are you saying that you're better than everyone else because you like expensive guns?
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:05 PM   #13
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I'm not sure i see the point.

not everyone can afford to shoot all the time or buy $2,000 guns. my whole collection has cost me less than $1,000(I have 4 and 1 was an insane deal and the other was grandpas.). granted im a youngin but i cant justify anything that expensive.

I'm not sure his point but...

T
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:30 PM   #14
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In all seriousness, I understand his point.

I started off making $25K and scrounging to afford my first gun.

As time went by, my tastes evolved and my income grew. I acquired finer guns... still "production" models, but high quality ones.

I'm now at a similar point in my collecting. I don't scoff at entry level guns, but I want some distinction and quality to my weapons. I just got done with a custom M14 project that turned out amazingly. I'd like to have a Freedom Arms revolver. A classy, customized bobtail commander 1911 would be nice to have too.

Quality is long remembered after the price is forgotten.

As such, I am also liquidating my safe's earlier contents to make room and $$$ for those more discriminating purchases.

It's just a phase of evolution.
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:31 PM   #15
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I am not telling anyone what to buy. That said, $2,000 seems to be the price threshhold for a handgun or rifle newly made to a reasonable standard of quality. This means machining the action to close tolerances out of steel forgings. With repeating shotguns, close fit is not nearly as critical, so you can get away with spending less. Then again, it would cost well over $1,000 to reproduce an old school pump gun like a Winchester M97 or M12, using American labor. And many benchmade M1911 pattern pistols selling upwards of $2,000 are built with MIM firing systems.

It is possible to find bargains in finely made surplus firearms, but they are few and far between. The unissued FN M30 Mauser carbine that I bought for $300 in the early Eighties is easily worth $1,200 today. An unissued Swiss K31 carbine would command a similar price. These guns are made as well as $2,000 sporters of 2008. You get what you pay for.
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:36 PM   #16
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So what you're saying is I should probably just throw this 700 dollar Glock in the trash? Real sad, I liked that gun.
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:41 PM   #17
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So what you're saying is I should probably just throw this 700 dollar Glock in the trash? Real sad, I liked that gun.
I am not telling anyone else what to do. If I had to play in the mud, I might get a G17. I don't, so I wouldn't. A SIG P210 suits my games much better.
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:46 PM   #18
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Which games would those be?
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:53 PM   #19
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My Wilson Combat ended up costing me nearly 2500 in the end, I have a noveske ar-15 that with optics is up to a little over 4k. Do you know how much I shoot those? Hardly ever. They sit in one of my safes, not wanting to get a scuff on them. The guns I shoot the most? A gen 2 glock 21, very ugly and an LMT/Spikes tactical ar 15 build I put together for probably 1400. I can beat these guns unlike my other weapons and not really care if they get a little messed up. Pretentious posts like this serve no purpose, besides trying to show off. In the end, no one cares what you own or what you can afford, it's just all about having fun and staying safe.
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Old October 3, 2008, 01:57 PM   #20
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larvatus First off thanks for your post on your perspective . As the owner of a few 2k+ valued guns i however have a little different perspective than you . You said ....

Quote:
I have sold guns online that ranged from a $750 S&W 1006 to a $7,500 SIG P210-L. Based on my experience, I would be very reluctant to buy another gun worth less than $2,000. That seems to be the point at which the value of the gun sufficiently exceeds the transaction costs of its acquisition to make its future sale or trade practicable. Below this point, the tire kickers tend to overwhelm the potential buyers.
Now not being in your rarified handgun market In the last 10 years i have only owned one handgun that was worth 2k+, I have to say that i enjoy the as you put it " tire kickers " and confess to being one my self . I trade guns , and in fact quite a few of them in the " common man " pricing . When i sell a higher ticket gun ( call that over 1k ) folks want to meet with me , inspect the gun , and if at all possible fire it . I enjoy this , as it allows me to meet other intrested folk and visit a couple of hours while the weapon is being inspected/fired as the case may be . I have yet to meet someone who wants one of my guns that is not worth an hour or two of my time . The non buyers ( you call them tire kickers ) dont buy because either i am priced too high , or because they simply dont have the disposable cash . In either event i am glad to meet them . Heck just the other day a fella came to look at a trapdoor i have , he did not buy but his boy shure nuff shot a couple hundred rounds out of my ar . I considered it a good day . He will be back , and in another 10 or 15 years his boy will be here, ready to trade . Sell your stuff any way you choose , give the " tire kickers " my name by all means .
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:23 PM   #21
larvatus
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Do you know how much I shoot those? Hardly ever. They sit in one of my safes, not wanting to get a scuff on them.
My guns are begging to be shot. I respect their wishes.
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:25 PM   #22
larvatus
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Which games would those be?
The games of pretending that killing cardboard and dinging steel prepares me for social work.
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:42 PM   #23
larvatus
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I have yet to meet someone who wants one of my guns that is not worth an hour or two of my time .
My collection operates on a "catch and release" principle. California state law limits private collectors to 5 outgoing private handgun transfers per year. It doesn't make sense for me to use them up by churning cheap surplus guns that clutter the back of my safe.

I go to Borders a couple times a week. I buy a triple espresso and spend an hour or two reading the magazines or browsing the web via a Sprint modem attached to my computer. Every month I get coupons worth up to 40% off retail price. They mark the only times I buy a book or a DVD at Borders. I reckon that my shopping patterns make my trade less profitable to the store than that of the bushy bearded backpacker who can always be found lurking near the coeds doing their homework. Since I don't run a storefront, I shouldn't have to put up with pikers of either kind. Sure enough, it's fun to talk guns with like-minded ne'er-do-wells. But I'd rather spend my time with a hot chick or a good book.
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:47 PM   #24
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The games of pretending that killing cardboard and dinging steel prepares me for social work.
So IPSC, IDPA, Steel Challenge? What's your favorite?
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Old October 3, 2008, 02:52 PM   #25
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So IPSC, IDPA, Steel Challenge? What's your favorite?
Bullseye and silhouette. I'm too lazy to run without being chased.
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