'58 Remington copy is real history

Oquirrh · July 8, 2008, 03:47 PM

I picked up a '58 Remington today from a lawyer. Hadn't been shot or cleaned in a couple decades.

It could be a historic icon: The last cap and ball used in a shoot out.(I am not making this up.)

The lawyer represented a biker in Ogden, Utah, who got into an altercation outside a bar on 25th Street (a bad place) sometime in the early 1980s (not 1880s). "Snake" pulled a knife or chain on him and the biker reached into his saddle bag where he kept his '58 Remington New Army replica.

He shot and wounded his attacker. (Don't what load he used.)

The lawyer defended him, arguing self-defense, and won. After the trial the lawyer got the '58 from the cops as a momento, after promising not to give it back to the biker. (I'm sure the biker would have been glad to have given it to him.)

After all these years, the lawyer decided to "get it out of the house" and I got it.

The lawyer's memory is sketchy, but I'm going to research the case--I'll have to go to the library in Ogden.

Right now, I'm trying to un-freeze the screws and nipples. It's soaking in knock-er-loose. Other than that, it's in surprisingly good shape.

I can't find any markings so far, except Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield, N.J.

Hawg · July 8, 2008, 04:29 PM

No proofs or date code? Probably Euroarms or Pietta. I may be wrong but I think the older Navy Arms were Euroarms. Why didn't the biker get it back if he was acquitted?

Raider2000 · July 8, 2008, 05:12 PM

Very interesting story there & nice Remmie replica.

Oquirrh · July 8, 2008, 05:38 PM

He coulda-shoulda got it back, but I think he was just glad to be a free man. The cops were being cops, as usual. As I said, the lawyer was sketchy on details.

BTW, might this be a kit gun. I got most of it apart--the hammer screw won't budge yet--and I noticed the inside of the wood grips have smudges of stain just inside the edges. It's reddish and I doubt blood would still be red after all these years. I found a couple markings, but they are all numbers. I'll see if the nipples match my Piettas. The barrel is in very good shape--someone must have squirted oil down it once in a while. The top 3/4s of the chambers are clean, but there's some rust and pitting just below the nipples.

I'm going to soak the hammer screw all night and try again tomorrow. I may have to take it to a machinist or gunsmith who has a drill press or something to put controlled torque on it. I've just got a padded vice and some screw drivers.

It locks up tight and straight.

Hawg · July 8, 2008, 05:48 PM

You might get it out by tapping on a screwdriver handle and twisting at the same time, kinda like an impact driver. Just be careful not to mar the screw head.

**4V50 Gary** · July 8, 2008, 06:25 PM

Get the court records and police report if you can. If you can get a mug shot of the biker, all the better. Court records and the police report will establish the provenance of the gun. Then dig out any newspaper report from the area and add that to the file. That will establish that your replica Remington was actually used in a gunfight. By taking these measures, you authenticate the gun (get a letter from the attorney on his letterhead) and it'll increase the value of the gun. Grab a photo of the area too (I'm sure it's in the police report).

Dang, I can't believe I've offered that advice.

Oquirrh · July 8, 2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

...and it'll increase the value of the gun.

Please don't tell me not to shoot it! I bought it because it was cheap. The story was just an added bonus.

I take great pride in NOT being a collector. I just like to shoot the dang things.

Besides that Hammer screw is one with the frame--I may just throw it in the lake.

mykeal · July 8, 2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

the lawyer got the '58 from the cops as a momento, after promising not to give it back to the biker

and

Quote:

the lawyer was sketchy on details.

Hmmm. All you've got is the lawyer's side of the story. Any good reason to believe he's being accurate? Somehow it just doesn't smell right.

**4V50 Gary** · July 8, 2008, 07:11 PM

Go ahead and shoot the darn thing, but git the papers I told you to git.

sundance44s · July 9, 2008, 07:24 AM

I`d like to hear the story on how the cops unloaded the pistol after they took the guy in .....I don`t see any caps ..I take it the other chambers were empty .

Oquirrh · July 9, 2008, 01:52 PM

It was empty. I'm going to call the lawyer when i get a chance for more details.

I got the last frozen screws out. Harbor Freight sells a $6 mini-impact tool that works well and came with a flat screwdriver bit that was a perfect fit. BTW, it takes Pietta nipples.

Hey, I'm going to shoot this "li'l bit of history" and maybe brown it, unless somebody wants to trade me even for another c/b revolver.

Just sayin'.

Hawg · July 9, 2008, 02:01 PM

I wouldn't mind having it, it kinda matches my antiqued one but I don't have anything I want to trade for it.

Oquirrh · July 9, 2008, 03:01 PM

Called the lawyer, he is really hazing on the details, in fact he asked if I turn anything up, to fill him in. He is retired and shredded his records.

The assailant, whose handle was "Snake," was not KILLED. He was shot in the 'lower extremity". The Remington Man was charged with attempted murder. Snake was coming after him with either a chain or a knife.

To the best of his recollection, it did come up that the revolver should be returned to its owner. But, in addition to the attempted murder charge Remington Man was slapped with a carrying a concealed weapon without a permit charge. The lawyer says he may have also been a restricted person for other reasons.

Utah has a very open state concealed weapon permit program now, but then, I think you had to get a permit from the police chief in Ogden to concealed carry (I think).

When I get time, I'm going to run it down in the Ogden Standard-Examiner, though one biker shooting another in the leg wasn't big news in Ogden in those days.

drdirk · July 9, 2008, 03:17 PM

Assuming that you did not unload it, who did? I doubt that all 5 shots were fired so the gun should have had a few rounds in it?

Then again, maybe it was unloaded at the police station. Since it likely was used in court as evidence I doubt that would have show it "loaded".

Interesting story. I wonder how many guys carry (legally or illegally) a loaded cap and ball revolver as self defense.

Enjoy it!

Oquirrh · July 9, 2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

I doubt that all 5 shots were fired so the gun should have had a few rounds in it?

I asked about it. The lawyer had no recollection of what the cops had to do to bring the gun to court.

Another fun fact: In defending Remington Man, the lawyer said that he used the victim's name, "Snake", as often as he could in front of the jury--for obvious reasons.

Quote:

I wonder how many guys carry (legally or illegally) a loaded cap and ball revolver as self defense.

I wonder too. Also how long was it loaded in his saddlebag. And how many times did the hammer come down before it shot.

I hereby christen this '58 Remington "Snake" in honor of the man it bit. He was by the way, a member of the Sundowners

Raider2000 · July 9, 2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdirk

Interesting story. I wonder how many guys carry (legally or illegally) a loaded cap and ball revolver as self defense.

Enjoy it!

Most of the time that I'm on the club property scouting for stand sights, or general work I'll carry either of my Pietta 58's with 5 chambers loaded mostly for maybe a snake or yote encounter & for those times where a onry stump comes my way but if I did need it to defend my self it does have enough omph to get the job done if need be & it is better than nothing but I don't carry it in the woods for that purpose "if I was worried about defending my self against a two legged character then my trusty M1911A1 would be my choice of carry" plus it's a whole lot more fun to plink at stumps & stuff than my .45ACP.

Crosshair · July 9, 2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Please don't tell me not to shoot it! I bought it because it was cheap. The story was just an added bonus.

It's not anywhere near mint condition so no danger from that standpoint. I'd just make sure to take good care of it though to keep it in the condition it currently is in. Personally, I'd save any original parts that you replace, even if they are worn out.

If you verify the story, please share the details with us. Quite an interesting piece you have there. Having that sort of verified history will certainly increase the value of the gun, regardless of its condition.

Crosshair · July 9, 2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

I`d like to hear the story on how the cops unloaded the pistol after they took the guy in .....I don`t see any caps ..I take it the other chambers were empty .

I saw on one of those cop shows an officer trying to unload a single action revolver in the background. He had no clue how the thing worked. The guy that was talking was on screen for about a minute or so and at the end the officer in the background was still screwing with it without sucess. Don't know if he ever did get it unloaded.

Hawg · July 9, 2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

I`d like to hear the story on how the cops unloaded the pistol after they took the guy in

I'd hazard a guess that they shot them out or used a wood screw and a pair of pliers.

Smokin_Gun · July 10, 2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Please don't tell me not to shoot it! I bought it because it was cheap. The story was just an added bonus.

I take great pride in NOT being a collector. I just like to shoot the dang things.

Besides that Hammer screw is one with the frame--I may just throw it in the lake.

Before you toss it in the lake think a me and send it I got one just like it. And I wouldn't worry too much on papers as there is no held record of sale anywhere Non Colt repros are not sold by serial numbers.

Anyway Go Shoot It Now!

1858 Army San Paolo (Now Euroarms)

SG

Erich · July 10, 2008, 09:31 AM

OT: I did an appeal on a mid-'90s killing in which a BP revolver was used. A .44 cal version of the 1851. It functioned very well. Gun looked like pure hell after years in evidence.

Oquirrh · July 10, 2008, 05:55 PM

smokin',
Does your's have that "cast iron" look to the metal? That's why I think this was a kit gun that was never finished. Though it looks blue/gray in the foto, it's really "in the white."

Quote:

I got one just like it.

Don't you worry... I'll shoot it.

sdt11670 · July 16, 2008, 07:00 PM

I can't believe i ran across this thread! I think i met the shooter you are talking about! I live in Alabama and started buying these type guns in 1990 or so and i met a biker whom was passing through the state in 91 or 92 and i was talking talking to him and we got on the subject of bp guns when he told me the story of him shooting an attacker with his 1858 na remington replica which he assembled from a kit and kept in his saddle bags on his bike. And he told me about the lawyer defending him and he let him keep the gun (he said he simply purchased a replacement in the next state!) he told me his name was Barry. Anyway i ran across this searching for remmie mods and thought it was probably the same guy i met and just had to register and respond. ....Scott

Oquirrh · July 16, 2008, 10:05 PM

Great. That gives me another name, Barry, to use when I try to track this down.

I don't have time for the next couple months to get up to Ogden to check the records, but I might be able to do some of it from the library in Salt Lake City (unfortunately the incident is pre-online records).

Thanks for taking the time to post.

I feel like a "History Detective."

July 8, 2008, 03:47 PM	#1
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	'58 Remington copy is real history I picked up a '58 Remington today from a lawyer. Hadn't been shot or cleaned in a couple decades. It could be a historic icon: The last cap and ball used in a shoot out.(I am not making this up.) The lawyer represented a biker in Ogden, Utah, who got into an altercation outside a bar on 25th Street (a bad place) sometime in the early 1980s (not 1880s). "Snake" pulled a knife or chain on him and the biker reached into his saddle bag where he kept his '58 Remington New Army replica. He shot and wounded his attacker. (Don't what load he used.) The lawyer defended him, arguing self-defense, and won. After the trial the lawyer got the '58 from the cops as a momento, after promising not to give it back to the biker. (I'm sure the biker would have been glad to have given it to him.) After all these years, the lawyer decided to "get it out of the house" and I got it. The lawyer's memory is sketchy, but I'm going to research the case--I'll have to go to the library in Ogden. Right now, I'm trying to un-freeze the screws and nipples. It's soaking in knock-er-loose. Other than that, it's in surprisingly good shape. I can't find any markings so far, except Navy Arms Co. Ridgefield, N.J. Last edited by Oquirrh; July 9, 2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: corrected some facts

July 8, 2008, 05:38 PM	#4
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	I knew someone would ask that... He coulda-shoulda got it back, but I think he was just glad to be a free man. The cops were being cops, as usual. As I said, the lawyer was sketchy on details. BTW, might this be a kit gun. I got most of it apart--the hammer screw won't budge yet--and I noticed the inside of the wood grips have smudges of stain just inside the edges. It's reddish and I doubt blood would still be red after all these years. I found a couple markings, but they are all numbers. I'll see if the nipples match my Piettas. The barrel is in very good shape--someone must have squirted oil down it once in a while. The top 3/4s of the chambers are clean, but there's some rust and pitting just below the nipples. I'm going to soak the hammer screw all night and try again tomorrow. I may have to take it to a machinist or gunsmith who has a drill press or something to put controlled torque on it. I've just got a padded vice and some screw drivers. It locks up tight and straight.

July 8, 2008, 06:25 PM	#6
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Get the court records and police report if you can. If you can get a mug shot of the biker, all the better. Court records and the police report will establish the provenance of the gun. Then dig out any newspaper report from the area and add that to the file. That will establish that your replica Remington was actually used in a gunfight. By taking these measures, you authenticate the gun (get a letter from the attorney on his letterhead) and it'll increase the value of the gun. Grab a photo of the area too (I'm sure it's in the police report). Dang, I can't believe I've offered that advice. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 8, 2008, 07:11 PM	#9
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Go ahead and shoot the darn thing, but git the papers I told you to git. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 9, 2008, 03:01 PM	#13
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Story changes a bit... Called the lawyer, he is really hazing on the details, in fact he asked if I turn anything up, to fill him in. He is retired and shredded his records. The assailant, whose handle was "Snake," was not KILLED. He was shot in the 'lower extremity". The Remington Man was charged with attempted murder. Snake was coming after him with either a chain or a knife. To the best of his recollection, it did come up that the revolver should be returned to its owner. But, in addition to the attempted murder charge Remington Man was slapped with a carrying a concealed weapon without a permit charge. The lawyer says he may have also been a restricted person for other reasons. Utah has a very open state concealed weapon permit program now, but then, I think you had to get a permit from the police chief in Ogden to concealed carry (I think). When I get time, I'm going to run it down in the Ogden Standard-Examiner, though one biker shooting another in the leg wasn't big news in Ogden in those days.

July 8, 2008, 04:29 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	No proofs or date code? Probably Euroarms or Pietta. I may be wrong but I think the older Navy Arms were Euroarms. Why didn't the biker get it back if he was acquitted?

July 8, 2008, 05:12 PM	#3
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	Very interesting story there & nice Remmie replica.

July 8, 2008, 05:48 PM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	You might get it out by tapping on a screwdriver handle and twisting at the same time, kinda like an impact driver. Just be careful not to mar the screw head.

July 9, 2008, 07:24 AM	#10
sundance44s Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2006 Location: Hernando , Ms. Posts: 579	I`d like to hear the story on how the cops unloaded the pistol after they took the guy in .....I don`t see any caps ..I take it the other chambers were empty .

July 9, 2008, 01:52 PM	#11
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	It was empty. I'm going to call the lawyer when i get a chance for more details. I got the last frozen screws out. Harbor Freight sells a $6 mini-impact tool that works well and came with a flat screwdriver bit that was a perfect fit. BTW, it takes Pietta nipples. Hey, I'm going to shoot this "li'l bit of history" and maybe brown it, unless somebody wants to trade me even for another c/b revolver. Just sayin'.

July 9, 2008, 02:01 PM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I wouldn't mind having it, it kinda matches my antiqued one but I don't have anything I want to trade for it.

July 9, 2008, 03:17 PM	#14
drdirk Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2004 Location: houston, tx Posts: 179	Assuming that you did not unload it, who did? I doubt that all 5 shots were fired so the gun should have had a few rounds in it? Then again, maybe it was unloaded at the police station. Since it likely was used in court as evidence I doubt that would have show it "loaded". Interesting story. I wonder how many guys carry (legally or illegally) a loaded cap and ball revolver as self defense. Enjoy it!

July 10, 2008, 09:31 AM	#21
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	OT: I did an appeal on a mid-'90s killing in which a BP revolver was used. A .44 cal version of the 1851. It functioned very well. Gun looked like pure hell after years in evidence.

July 16, 2008, 07:00 PM	#23
sdt11670 Junior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 10	I can't believe i ran across this thread! I think i met the shooter you are talking about! I live in Alabama and started buying these type guns in 1990 or so and i met a biker whom was passing through the state in 91 or 92 and i was talking talking to him and we got on the subject of bp guns when he told me the story of him shooting an attacker with his 1858 na remington replica which he assembled from a kit and kept in his saddle bags on his bike. And he told me about the lawyer defending him and he let him keep the gun (he said he simply purchased a replacement in the next state!) he told me his name was Barry. Anyway i ran across this searching for remmie mods and thought it was probably the same guy i met and just had to register and respond. ....Scott

July 16, 2008, 10:05 PM	#24
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Small world... Great. That gives me another name, Barry, to use when I try to track this down. I don't have time for the next couple months to get up to Ogden to check the records, but I might be able to do some of it from the library in Salt Lake City (unfortunately the incident is pre-online records). Thanks for taking the time to post. I feel like a "History Detective."