The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 6, 2008, 07:49 PM   #1
jpwilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 539
Der Karabiner 98K

I purchased a Mitchell's Mausers Collector Grade 98K Today! It is not an M48 but a real 98K built in the Mauser Factory at Obendorf during 1943. It has matching numbers and proper markings all around. Plus, it looks as good as the one on their website! Anyone else here have one or any opinions on this rifle? I'll post some pictures of it when I can get the time and lighting to take them.

Mitchell's Stock Photo


EDIT: HERE'S SOME PICTURES OF IT:





__________________
"Rats & roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice & mercy." - Wendell Berry

Last edited by jpwilly; March 8, 2008 at 10:43 PM.
jpwilly is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 08:56 PM   #2
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
Congrats on your new acquisition!

My byf 43 98k isn't as pretty, but that's to be expected with one that came to the US in a GI dufflebag.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:32 PM   #3
Tikirocker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 909
Tamara ... tell me you know better about Mitchells Mausers.
__________________
The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php
Tikirocker is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:43 PM   #4
DBotkin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2006
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 302
OK, I'll bite. I've read several similar comments. What's wrong with 'em?
DBotkin is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:47 PM   #5
USMC88-93
Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2008
Posts: 26
To begin with they are over priced. I can not deny it appears to be a nice rifle, but they are over priced when bought from Mitchels
USMC88-93 is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:50 PM   #6
Abndoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2006
Location: Kalifornia
Posts: 727
If they sell, then they're not overpriced. Shoot it and enjoy.
__________________
With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog.
Abndoc is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 10:57 PM   #7
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikirocker
Tamara ... tell me you know better about Mitchells Mausers.
I didn't want to rain on his parade. He's happy with it, so why I should I get all collector-snobby on him? Besides, the bolt and floorplate on my no-import-mark byf 43 don't have matching numbers, so who am I to talk?
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 11:09 PM   #8
Tikirocker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 909
We had a recent thread about this where the issue of Mitchells was well addressed by a fellow member and collector ... try this and read from page two onwards.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...Mausers&page=2

Or just read this ...

Quote:
Oh I how love when someone defends Mitchells.......

All quotes taken from their ads and website....

1. Lets start with their Yugo M48. Or Im sorry as they "advertise" 98K-M48.
But wait...Im confused...Which is it guys a 98K or an M48??? It can NOT be both. Yet Mitchells calls it a 98K-M48. Sorry, if you dont think thats misleading....An M48 is not in any way, shape, or form or has anything whatsoever to do with a K98. A K98 was manufactured between 1935 and 1945. A Yugo M48 is a Mauser 98 action designed and built in Yugoslavia in 1948. Big difference!!! A knowledgeable collector knows this. Somebody with little to no knowledge of Mausers, probably, does not. Who do you think Mitchells is going after....

2. "Built on former German tooling, blah blah blah..." NOPE, BZZZZ, WRONG!!!!
The "tooling" had been there since before the war and had been purchased from Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. Again a knowledgeable collector knows this...

3..... " the Model 48 is recognized as a superior example of the K98 type military rifle"....
HUH??? K98 TYPE??? The German K98 is designation or name of a certain rifle. The Yugoslavian M48 is the designation or name of a certain rifle. A K98 is a K98. An M48 is an M48. They are NOT interchangeable. "Superior Example"??? Ok let me ask you....Would you rather have a walnut stocked Mauser K98 made at the Mauser factory in Germany. Or a Beechwood stocked M48 made in Yugoslavia??? Yeah thats what I thought....


4. "The Model 48 was produced by free people, instead of forced labor".....
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of free. Do you think people living under a Communist dictator were "free"??? Hmmmm, let's leave that one to the historians shall we....





Lets go now to their Mauser K98Ks shall we....

1. Looking at their fine ad...we read..."Factory overhauled, preserved in military storage since 1945. Bright bore, clean original stock, excellent blueing, MATCHING NUMBERS ON ALL SIX MAJOR PARTS..."

Ok...we know these are Russian Captures (again, something Mitchells does not mention) so being "preserved in military storage"??? Ok, i can buy that.
Factory Overhauled??? Do you consider disassembling a rifle, covering the stock in shellac and stamping an "X" on the receiver and reassembleing the rifle irregardless of serial#, as being factory overhauled??? Coz thats exactly what the Russians did. But looking at that beautifal rifle in their ad you would'nt know that and Mitchells is'nt going to tell you that. Coz their "factory Overhauled" statement is just their way of saying..."WE sanded the stocks, reblued the metal, ground off and restamped serial#, and polished the bolt". In the collecting world, every one of those things is a HUGE NO NO.


Clean original stock??? Yeah, theyre original, made during WW2...just not original to that rifle. The serial stamped in the side of the stock will tell you that and is a dead giveaway that these are Russian Captures. The Germans NEVER marked their stocks in that way or location.

Excellent Blueing??? The russians applied a matte black finish to the metal parts. Mitchells reblues them so of course theyre going to have excellent blueing. (and besides when your grinding off serials you kind of have to reblue or it wont look to good). Any collector will tell you, reblueing or for that matter sanding a stock will LOWER the value of a rifle. Will Mitchells tell you that they reblued the metal??? Of course not. They were factory overhauled in 1945!!!

Matching Numbers on all six major parts??? A Russian Capture with matching numbers on six major parts??? Only six??? What about the other serials, sure you know, the ones the Germans stamped on the screws, cleaning rod, bayo lug, etc.??? I guess "don't ask, don't tell" would apply here, huh Mitchells?? Sorry guys, grinding off non matching serials on various parts and then restamping some of them to match the receiver is WRONG!!! Especially since any collector knows that Mauser marked matching serials on every single part, making it a BIG determination in the rifles value. To advertise that these rifles are Matching when in fact they are not is FRAUDULENT!!!! And again destroys what little, if any value (collector or monetary) the rifle had left, after the stock sanding and metal reblueing.


Go to their website and you'll see that they have ultra rare SS rifles and super duper ultra rare SS deathshead concentration camp rifles. Sure they do.....Call them up....ask for one... and theyll happily stamp a standard a K98 worth about $250-$300, with the appropiate markings and sell it to you for $7,000 to $10,000!!!

Oh and that beautifal "minty" condition rifle they show in their ad???...You wont get that one unless you pay $699 for the "premium grade".


Surg-Res...Let me ask you, you stated that you have no use for "scrubbed, restored, or mismatched guns" right. If anything, didnt the nice shiny polished bolt cause ANY alarms to go off in your head that there is someting wrong here??? No, K98 ever made, EVER... had a polished bolt left in the white,... NEVER, EVER,EVER!!!

Im telling you as a Mauser collector for the better part of 20+ years, Mitchells is bogus. Their claims are bogus and their rifles are WAY overpriced. They do and sell all those things you said you dont want. Everybody who has done time in the Mauser collecting world knows all about the joke that is Mitchells Mausers, from the time they started until today. If they are not trying to decieve you, why not just say in their ads..."restored russian captures...Various grades...call Mitchells".... Coz they know knowledgeable collectors wont bite. They are marketing these rifles to people who dont know any better. And will sadly get burned.

Hey its your money, do what you want.
__________________
__________________
The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php
Tikirocker is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 11:34 PM   #9
jpwilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 539
Thanks for the feed back guys...I should have mentioned that I knew they were Russian Captured rifles. I just wanted a clean rifle without doing the work myself. I paid $395 for it and at that price am happy. I looked through a pile of russian captures at the last fun show but nothing excited me due to the "look" I like the "look" of this Mauser and feel I paid around $150 for the refinishing sounds fair I think. Around here a "Good" Russian Capture runs $230 from J&G Sales. I don't have the time or patience to refinish rifles with two young kids etc etc.
__________________
"Rats & roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice & mercy." - Wendell Berry
jpwilly is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 11:48 PM   #10
Darren007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,053
JpWilly, Im the guy who wrote that lengthy rant about Mitchells that TikiRocker has quoted. That long "rant" was brought on by a member who was being somewhat difficult and mouthy (IMHO) towards other members and myself, about a subject he obviously knew little to nothing about.

If, however, you allow me to humbly submit my opinion on your rifle, ill tell you this.....

If all you wanted was a K98 regardless of price, orginality, or potential value well, congratulations, thats what you got. A real deal K98 made and carried during WWII, that looks pretty damn sharp. And will just leave it at that.

If, however, you were looking for something a bit more, or you are concerned with price, orginality, or value, then feel free to read through the thread that Tikirocker pasted in his post or just PM me and Ill give you my opinion on Mitchells.
Darren007 is offline  
Old March 6, 2008, 11:53 PM   #11
Tikirocker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 909
Quote:
PM me and Ill give you my opinion on Mitchells.
You mean you're not done giving your opinion on them yet!?

You know I agree ...
__________________
The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php
Tikirocker is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 06:17 AM   #12
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
Tikirocker,

Every time Mitchell's refinishes a Russkie capture 98k, my un-refinished one gets more valuable.

I'll say this for them; not everyone has the time or knowledge to crawl the aisles at a gun show with a bore light and a field gauge, looking for a bargain on an intact 98k. Some people just want a gun that looks purty, that they can take out and shoot, and if something's wrong with it they want to be able to call a phone number and complain and get it made right.

To a cruffler, Mitchell's is somewhere between a joke and the Antichrist; to Joe Averageshooter who just wants a gun he can shoot like the one he saw on Saving Private Ryan, maybe they're not as evil.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 07:06 AM   #13
Tikirocker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 909
Tamara,

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and allow for the fact that they might just like something authentic if only they were supplied with the information to know better from the outset. If after the fact they still choose to go for the likes of Mitchells et al then that's their own deal.
__________________
The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php
Tikirocker is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 07:17 AM   #14
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
To each his own, and all that...

Some people restore old cars to original condition, with AM radios, fussy carburettors, 6-volt electrical systems and all, and others are happy with the look and feel of the classic car with a few "modern" enhancements. Some folks want to polish and show, and others just want to drive.

I prefer my rifles all original and love them for their history. My next-door neighbor back where I used to live was always re-barreling some old Vz.24 or M48 for .308 or .30-'06. I thought it was kinda blasphemous, but they were his guns and his money. (Besides, I have a hard time getting all misty-eyed over an M48 anyway.)

It's still a free country (mostly).

Now I'm going to go pet my Erfurt Kar.98AZ and tell it not to worry; it will never be "restored".
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 07:21 AM   #15
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Screw 98Ks, boring dime a dozens, try to find a nice Gew 98 or even harder, a Kar 98...

I gots trade bait

Wildreallywouldlikeawiemar20reworkora1914erfurtAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 07:24 AM   #16
Tikirocker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Posts: 909
You do that ... and I'll pet my 660/Steyr 1939 K98 Kriegsmarine 1 of the first 1000 K98's ever built by Steyr.
__________________
The Lee Enfield forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=27
Surplus Rifle Forums - http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/index.php
Tikirocker is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 07:58 AM   #17
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
Wildreallywouldlikeawiemar20reworkora1914erfurtAlaska
I've got a Weimar rework transitional Gew.98 on a Spandau '16 action, but my Kar.98 is an Erfurt '18 AZ, so I'm not sure how interested you'd be there. Neither have import marks, of course, and the AZ's all matchin', w/the original sling.

Whatcha got? Throw out some trade bait.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 08:34 AM   #18
jpwilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 539
As always you guys are great...right on the money too. You haven't said anything that isn't true! And I apprecieate the honest answers regarding the Mauser. And yes for better or for worse I wanted a "clean" example that looked like it came from the movie set of Saving Private Ryan. To some that's just wrong but not to me. What's the difference if I buy a crappy Russian remake or one that obviously was done much better??? A remake is a remake I'd rather it be "purdy". To me at least one close example of how a rifle appeared when issued is more impressive to show a non cruffler etc than the ones in the safe with all their history intact. Same anology as the old muscle car restored vs unrestored.
__________________
"Rats & roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice & mercy." - Wendell Berry
jpwilly is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 03:19 PM   #19
Darren007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,053
I hear ya JpWilly, The beef most of us snob collectors have is with Mitchells themselves. While we dont want/like refurbed guns for obvious reasons, Im not going to knock a guy for spending his hard earned cash on one as long as he knows what he his getting.

Like I said, our beef is with Mitchells. While youre an exception, I've met plenty of guys who were wanting to become collectors or had just started collecting. Unfortunatley, Mitchells misled them down the wrong path and duped many of them into buying something that wasnt quite as "advertised".
Darren007 is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 03:30 PM   #20
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Quote:
Whatcha got? Throw out some trade bait.
Husky M38, NRA fine-excellent, plus my undying love and I'll get ya a Blaser hat from germany, if I don't drink myself to death

WildiwantthatkarAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 04:37 PM   #21
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,983
Hmmm... Thinking, thinking...
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 04:37 PM   #22
Old Time Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Location: Hinterlands of Wisconsin
Posts: 488
Me thinks that Darren007 is correct...very well said, hope you enjoy your rifle jpwilly.

I see the argument from both sides, but the snotty collectors are starting to get way, way carried away. They now condemn the action of cleaning off the soviet smudge on RC's, saying that is blasphemous. That the soviet captures are a history unto themselves, to me that is bunk! Anyone that thinks that the slathered on shellac, mismatched serial #'s, and encrusted in cosmoline is more valueable than a nice, clean, safe, re-furbished RC based on history, must think that a scavanger in a junk pile adds value to trash someone has thown out.

jpwilly, if you bought because you wanted a sense of nostolgia and for wanting to shoot with it, I am sure you didn't go wrong. The MM's are fine shooting rifles.

If you are a purist, then the MM's are not for you. I think the marketing by MM follows pretty close to the carnival hawker and that is where the stigma comes in.

Me, I just started collecting Mausers, so first they have to have good bores, then I'll worry about correct lineage.


Old Time Hunter is offline  
Old March 7, 2008, 04:54 PM   #23
Darren007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,053
Very nice Old Time Hunter. And I couldnt agree with you more about Russain Captures. I've bought a few myself and, sorry, the shellac is the first thing to go. Anybody who claims that taking that crap off "ruins" historical value needs to have their headchecked. Cleaning a collectable is not a refurbishment, and, although you can take it too far, IMO should always be done.

I do consider myself to be one of those "elitist/snobby" collectors but Im not as bad as most. Some wont even spit in the general direction of a RC or even consider them to be worth more than firewood. And I have to admit, when RCs first appeared on the scene I was one of them. However, there is no denying their value in knowledge. Serial# ranges have been expanded, new/different manufacturers markings appeared that were previously unknown, and so forth.

Last edited by Darren007; March 7, 2008 at 09:58 PM.
Darren007 is offline  
Old March 8, 2008, 10:44 PM   #24
jpwilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 539
Added some new pictures to look at up top in the original post.
__________________
"Rats & roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice & mercy." - Wendell Berry
jpwilly is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12654 seconds with 9 queries