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Old February 16, 2008, 10:18 AM   #26
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old school speed ball

This has been an interesting thread. Several people have mentioned paint ball and just wanted to pip in and say it can provide an introduction to some intense situations. It has been several years since I played along with my son (a dad and son bonding thing) however I wnated to mention the old school players.
There is a movement amongst the paint ballers for old school which means single shots, C02 cartridges rifel and pistols vs automatic gun play. (for those who do not know you can get full auto guns with firing rates in the 20 balls per second range, it looks like a rope of paint coming at you.) The old school play is close in, single shots with lots of rushing depending of you are playing one on one or teams. Often this senarios will be combinations of woods or in building depending on your course.
Just to see how you do on a larger scale try something like the a big game in your area. We use to have one here in Mich at Pickney, people from all over the US and world would come to play this non-stop game which would have 3thousand plus people on 85 acres. You will find out pretty quick how you react with 200 people charging your position or what happens when you round a building and are faced with several opponents who are surprised to see you pop around. Like anything, you get out of this what you seek and are willing to put yourself into.
Oh....if you guys are going to use paintballs be sure you go to a good course (they will be darn strict with gun handing rules, barrel plugs, mask behavior and crongraph guns on a regular basis) The first few times I was amazed at the excellent gun handling behavior of many of the kids. If you are going to make up your own game (we call this rouge games) be sure someone has a cronograph and keep your rounds under 300 fps (most guns are most acurate around 275 or so and getting hit with 400 tears skin, I know from experience. Please wear a mask or approved googles. Paintballs taste like **** but can do eye damage so a full face mask is all the better. The mask also introduces stress as it limits some of your visual imput from sides. You really have to develop the habit of moving your head to see the field of the game.
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Old February 16, 2008, 10:29 AM   #27
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Yeah, because it didn't work for Jordan or some of the other legendary gunfighters,
Is it the same Jordan who Charles Askins say, Bill Jordan was never in any gunfights. Also didn't he describe him as a guy who wrote a book about gunfighting without ever being in a gunfight?

There an awful lot of that in world of training for gunfights and gun writing.
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Old February 16, 2008, 10:18 PM   #28
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If you feel that stress will interfere with your thinking process, work towards lowering your stress level, generally speaking. I think stress comes from not trusting your gusts, so you run the same thoughts through, over and over. It's not the lack of time that is the problem in "stressful situations", it's how inadequately you spend the time you have at hand. Be friends with your own attitude on scumbags.
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Old February 17, 2008, 01:47 PM   #29
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Randy Cain's course on Tactical Handgun 101 will be right up your alley. My wife and I took it last year. It's anything but 101. Don't get me wrong. A person that hardly knows how to load one's gun to a LE officer with 15 years experience can attend the same class and both will never have a dull moment. The class is that dynamic. It's money worth spent.

Randy is a disciple of Gunsite. He adds his own philosophies to the course as well. As you can see, he holds classes in Lakeland. Hopefully that might be in your general area.

We're either going to his CQT or his 101 course again this year. I've never had better instruction than this...
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Old February 17, 2008, 03:25 PM   #30
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I didn't have time to read through all of the previous posts, but here's a take on things that you might not think about.

Voice commands and "taking charge of the situation" are integral parts of home defense. If you can control the suspect and "convince" him to surrender, it's possible that you won't have to fire a shot at all.

In law enforcement, you are trained with a FATS (firearms training simulator). I'm not sure if a normal civilian would ever have access to train with one of these, but it has video scenarios that are projected onto a wall. You are equipped with a holstered handgun (that has a laser on it to monitor your shots), and you encounter stressful situations. You must decide when to draw your weapon and whether or not to fire. You're in a room yelling at a suspect to drop his weapon, stop running, release a hostage, etc. There's a person at a computer behind you controlling the entire system. He decides how the scenario pans out. If you don't give good voice commands, he'll have the suspect do something crazy. You handle things correctly, and the suspect might surrender and you can avoid a shootout. In the end, the computer observer will go through all the scenarios and tell you what you did right/wrong and you can seel all of your shots and where they hit.

If you have access to a private area to practice, I'd recommend training on voice commands and knowing when to draw the line. Your ultimate trump card is the second you draw your weapon -- know when to play it.

PS: The first scenario that I did with FATS, about 3 years ago, a BG drew on me at close range in a bar. I was trying to pull the trigger as quickly as possible (didn't know much at all about guns at the time). I was in such a hurry, I didn't pull the trigger back until break during the first squeeze. Needless to say, I died. The next scenario, I shot a drug-smuggling truck driver in the junk as he was running, so it wasn't so bad .
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Old February 18, 2008, 04:40 PM   #31
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Perhaps try the interview test from Swordfish with the blonde?
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Old February 20, 2008, 12:44 AM   #32
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The single most important skill you can develop as a civilian is the ability to hit your target quickly.
That's somewhat true, imho, with a caveat: under stress, and esp in an armed encounter with someone shooting back at you, your shooting skill degrades by 30-50% at least, it's been estimated. Any training you can do, such as FoF, which helps you operate better under that kind of stress will improve your performance in a real situation. If you're just a 70% shooter and that degrades by half, you may have a problem. Weapon operation, malfunction clearance, reloads etc all need to be practiced under some sort of stress, even if it's a USPSA match. That will reduce the level of degradation to some extent, in my experience.

In a real shooting you're dealing with tachypsychia, tunnel vision, degraded fine motor skills etc, all as a result of that adrenaline dump. Some of those physiological effects are pronounced and require training to offset, to whatever extent that is possible. I just shot some training with SIMS doing building clearing with multiple "BGs" and the stress from that was intense, in a good (beneficial) way. Very enlightening.

We just had a departmental SO shooting last night. Suspect fired at deputies, deputies shot back. The two deputies are good shots; I've qual'd with them. The ratio of misses to hits was about 5 or 6 to 1, and they were fairly close but it was night time outdoors. Their hit ratio on the range or on the simulator would have been 80-90% probably, but nothing can synthesize that real situation, and even prior shooting experience only helps some, I think (unless you have Jim Cirillo's experience and live to tell about it). Good news: both walked away unhurt (BG didn't). I'm looking forward to talking to and learning from them.
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Old February 20, 2008, 07:17 PM   #33
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Anyone remember Inspector Cloussou and his manservant Cato ambushing him at home for the same reason? One of those scenes but with guns, now that'd be something! This sounds like the ultimate in training but with a wife and animals in the house, too much good stuff for me to handle.
In the movie The Soldier starring Ken Wahl, a portrayal of the CIA's battle with terrorism, a friend of Wahl's character ambushes him in his home, to the point of even drawing blood, and doesn't reveal himself until Wahl draws a gun on him. At that point it's "AW SH**", he rips his hood off and says, "Hey man, how ya doin?" Wahl replies, "You ripped my shirt!"

I agree this would be too dangerous a scenario for role playing.
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