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Old June 18, 2007, 12:19 PM   #26
Chris Phelps
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meh... I hold no stock in dictionaries. They change to update the times rather than providing a solid platform used to teach others. "Ignorance" is only one example of such a thing. Anther is the word "Utilize". If you read an older (10 year old) websters dictionary, the word utilize means "to use something for an action other than its intended purpose." For example, you cannot utilize a gun to shoot a target, since that was its intended purpose. You could utilize a rifle stock to shell a nut, though.

Ignorance is the same. Look in an old dictionary and you will find the explanation I have given.

Webster would roll over in his grave if he saw how they updated his dictionary rather than taught our youth the proper way to use words. IMO, the only thing worse is the ebonic dictionaries you find floating around the internet. These are the extreme updates that not even websters would do.. such as purposely misspelling words. "Dats da right spellin' yo, you juz lukin in da wrong diktonary."

I, for one, will NOT adapt with times. Meanings of words should not change just because the majority of our people failed to learn their proper meanings. I'm sorry.
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Old June 18, 2007, 02:33 PM   #27
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Se la vie. This has been the case forever; English would be unrecognizable if you read it from 6 or 7 centuries ago. Refusing to change will not stop the flow of time. What you consider proper english would have been considered an abherration by universities only 3 or 400 years ago (and incorrect a lot less time ago). An excellent book on this topic is:

The Unfolding of Language: An Evolution of Mankind's Greatest Invention by Guy Deutscher

Sorry for the hijack, linguistics is one of my minor hobbies. I will let it drop now.
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Old June 19, 2007, 12:40 AM   #28
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Not having a tumbler right now is driving me nuts. I want to finish prepping this batch of brass, but most of it is rather dirty. I'm about to start hand polishing them individually. UGH.
Make it easy on yourself and just load those dull brass. It doesn't make a whit as far as safety or accuracy. Just wipe them off with a dry cotton rag after sizing them to get the lube off. The polish is like a woman making up her face. Its all for looks.

On your other query. Once fired brass is seldom in need of any trimming. If it worked the first time it will work again. I have loaded thousands of 222 brass and never trimmed a one. If I thought they were getting long, I would size them then put a few in the rifle and close the bolt. If they didn't hit bottom, I would load them. If they did it was the trash can. They would take a lot of use before getting too long. They were at the end of their road by then any way.

The reason for checking the length is to insure they don't hit bottom and cause a problem in getting the bolt shut. There are no doubt variations in rifles on where that point will be. That is why there is a standard set of published dimensions. My calipers for many years was a once fired brass that I used to compare length with by holding it next to the one in question. Not very scientific? But it worked.

The seating depth is more important than the case length, but that will be the same regardless if your cases vary .010 in length. In the dies the seating length is established by the distance from the shell holder to the punch.

So what if your brass are .005 short? That isn't going to matter either. You don't need a crimp on those, so a little variation won't matter.

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Old June 19, 2007, 08:00 AM   #29
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The polish is like a woman making up her face. Its all for looks.
please allow me to say "WRONG !!" i have reloaded some ammo using clean but highly tarnished cases and some highly polished, this was a test i done several years ago with 100 rounds of each in a Colt 6721 and nearly new Colt 20 rnd. mags.., the tarnished rounds had 4 failure to feed and 1 had to be removed by cleaning rod, there were no failures in the very clean rounds.
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Old June 19, 2007, 12:24 PM   #30
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Neat experiment

That is an interesting experiment, but please help me to understand what really happened?

You say a failure to feed had to be removed with the cleaning rod? Does that mean it was in the chamber? It is my thought that a failure to feed doesn't get into the chamber. It is stuck somewhere between the magazine and the chamber, or it is still in the mag since the slide didn't come back far enough to catch the next round. I have never seen one of those that needed a rod to dislodge it.

If it failed to eject, then you had to remove it with a rod, that is failure to eject. No? I am confused. What happened for sure?

Yes, dirty brass and especially greasy brass may get stuck in the chamber.

I am not suggesting you shoot that kind of brass. What I am referring to is brass that is darkened with age. It must still be clean and free from oil and mud, gunk, and green patches, etc. However, I have been reloading for close to 40 years and never had a tumbler until just 2 weeks ago. I have never had a problem with dark brass as long as it was clean. A good wipe with a cotton rag takes care of the gunk. If it is green, a little steel wool will clean it up. However my brass never gets green unless it is something that has been lying on the ground for a year and you find it.

I guess my point is that you do not need a tumbler to be a successful reloader. You do need to pay attention to detail and wipe the brass clean. Don't let the lack of a tumbler hold you back from enjoying the hobby.
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Old June 19, 2007, 01:45 PM   #31
Chris Phelps
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There is no way I would fire dirty brass. They recommend you clean the brass before you resize, so it doesn't ruin the dies. If I have to worry about the brass ruining my $19.95 resize die, you can bet your life on the fact that my $1,300 rifle will NEVER see dirty brass.
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Old June 19, 2007, 04:27 PM   #32
Tim R
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Chris this too will pass...I would also recommend keeping records of your reloading activity in some sort of note book. Keep track of problems, what works or does not work. I keep track of how the night went, how equipment worked, (powder throw uniform or not) any problems I ran into and then finish it off with how the ammo shot. This has saved me going over the same problem over and over again.

I don't know the history of your brass. I get GI 223 once fired and sometimes have problems sizing without smashing the neck as GI chambers are not as tight as my match AR. I also use RCBS case lube 2 on a lube pad as it wipes off with a damp rag. I believe using a good lube is important for uniform sizing.

I also found uniforming the primer pockets on brass used for match shooting has about the biggest bang for the buck.
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Old June 19, 2007, 06:01 PM   #33
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Dirty brass is bad looking and bad for the dies, I clean before resizing.

The next thing I'll say, is hearsay and I don't know to be fact, but I've heard that too too clean of brass isn't good either. something about it could be slippery enough to not grip tight in the chamber and increases thrust against the bolt face, and that the military stores its ammo open to the atmosphere so the cases will oxidize some and not allow that to happen. Again, just something I heard. It sounds feasible to me though so while I like clean brass, I'm not anal about it being super shiney etc.
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Old June 19, 2007, 10:57 PM   #34
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Tim R.
On the GI .223. you mentioned smashed brass.
I would occasionally, do this when seating a bullet. I noticed the old bullet crimp, would flare out, after FL resizing. I realized this was brass, that did not need a trim. I started to outside deburr the brass. Trim or no trim.

ps. my dies and guns like clean brass.
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Old June 24, 2007, 06:33 PM   #35
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As long as your brass is under maximum length, you are OK. I have a 300 H&H. Max case length is 2.85, trim to 2.84. All 500+ rounds of brand new, virgin, W-W Super brass that I own averages about 2.825! That is .015 UNDER minimum spec! I called Olin in West Alton a few years back, and they said minimum spec is even LESS before they shut the line down and fix the problem!!! On the other hand, I sure can't notice a difference. It shoots well with no adverse effects. Good luck.
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