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Old September 10, 2006, 02:53 AM   #26
tanksoldier
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At contact distance a knife is easily as deadly as a handgun. In the hands of even a moderately skilled wielder, the threat of a knife skyrockets.

A skilled knife wielder can hit vital areas even with a small 1" keychain knife (eyes, neck, abdomen, groin). Hard to shoot when you're tripping over your own entrails.

A knife with a 3" blade can split your abdomen wide open, it can it can be driven up under your ribs and into your lungs, driven into an eye socket to the brain, into your kidney or the base of your skull from behind or up under your chin and thru your spine... and there's always the classic slashed throat.

A 6" inch knife can reach any vital organ easily from almost any angle.

It is rather easy to "trap" the hand or arm withh a handgun in such a manner that the firearm is rendered useless. It is very difficult to do this against a knife, and you risk an attack against your arm, hand or torso if the hold fails. You can suffer multiple stab wounds in a manner of seconds, and at contact range it's difficult to miss with a knife.

Knives are no joke, and if you let someone into contact range with one you will almost certainly get cut before things are done... and you can very easily be killed before you even know you're under attack.


Quote:
The knife is still the 2nd choice, the knife just cut some muscle tissue nothing dangerous.
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Old September 10, 2006, 05:27 AM   #27
Lloyd Smale
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ive had a little close quarter combat training and face to face id prefer a knife. Its faster to present, alot harder to defend against and to disarm just as deadly and probably more intiminating to your apponent then a gun. 5 feet away though and id take a gun anytime. Just remember if your facing a man a 5 feet that has a knife and you have a gun to keep shooting until hes on the ground and then a couple extra to make sure he doesnt get up because that knife will put a world of hurt on you.
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Old September 10, 2006, 06:12 AM   #28
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I agree with most of the above, but still:
a skilled oponent can block and turn a knife attack. Try blocking and returning bullets...

recently in my area a plainclothes LEO was assaulted and stabbed into the somach when he left a train. he pulled his 5shot .38Spl snubby and fired all rounds into the BG. The BG died the LEO survived.
When ambulance and uniformed police arrived the attacked LEO was sitting on the ground, still clinching to his snubby repeatedly pulling the tirgger click-click-click until the paramedics took it from his hands...
IMHO fighting a knife with a knife is much harder than fighting a knife with a gun (at any distance).
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Old September 10, 2006, 07:30 AM   #29
threefivesevenmag
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Guns and knives are both defensive/offensive tools.

It was said well earlier that the most important part of the fight is...the fight. Not how one wins, but how one sets their mind.

A knife is not easy to strip away from an attacker, even if trained well to do so. It's very mental...getting shot and getting cut are shocks to our nervous system no matter where the location.

If you engage in a knife fight, and all real knife fights that end in blood have to be close range...then you will more than likely get cut. One stab and slash through a pectoral muscle or tendon in the arm will leave you pretty helpless on one side of your body. A bullet, while extremely effective, cannot always promise that. Sorry.
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Old September 10, 2006, 04:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
I agree with most of the above, but still:
a skilled oponent can block and turn a knife attack. Try blocking and returning bullets...
A skilled opponent can turn a handgun attack as well, with more ease I should mention. Nobody is saying that a human being can block or dodge bullets just that human beings have been shown to be able to absorb massive amounts of handgun bullets. At close range you are lucky if you are even able to draw your weapon. In many cases as stated above people are killed before even drawing a weapon. If the BG gets a hold of your hand that has the firearm the firearm is rendered useless. The knife is still dangerous however. Its no guarantee that shooting a BG 2-3 times is going to put them down immediately. With that said, there no guarantee that 15rds will do the job.

Most incidents occur at very close range and a BG can cover that distance in usually less than 2 seconds. By the time you recognize the threat and draw your weapon, you're lucky if you can even get a shot off let alone enough shots to actually put the aggresor down for the count. Handgun rounds are not deathrays and at close range a knife is the more lethal weapon. If I was up against a crazed psycho with a combat knife I would fire if I had the chance but would most likely run like hell because I would consider myself to be at the disadvantage. There is no way I would just sit there and stand my ground. One swipe with a massive combat blade to my organs is about the equivalent of an entire magazine of 9mm rounds. The first thing we need to recognize is that handguns are not very effecient at wounding.
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Old September 10, 2006, 07:57 PM   #31
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At breath smelling distance I would take a 6" bowie knife over a .22 NAA mini revolver any day of the week.
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Old September 10, 2006, 11:50 PM   #32
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You have all already chosen to be proficient with guns. Add a knife to your everyday apparel. They are inexpensive compared to guns. I can send my underage kids to school wiht a 2.5" folder so they can have a defense. I can't send them to school with pepperspray or a gun.

There are many places where you are limited to a non firearm weapon. Train with both and you will never be unarmed.

Additionally, face up to the fact that if you ever get into a knife fight, YOU WILL BE CUT somewhere. This means you should learn to use your weak side hand as your strongside hand is most likely to be cut.

Me I carry a 4" folder on my strong side right next to my gun, I can have either out in <2 seconds from concealment. It aint the best odds but all you can do is train and be as prepared as possible.
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Old September 11, 2006, 12:07 AM   #33
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I think Snolden's advice is good. I know for my own self, I'd probably get chopped up into lasagne in a tussle with somebody with a knife...but he's right, I should know more about how to deal with that. I think I'll check around Houston and see what's up. One or two of the indoor ranges sometimes sponsor self defense/shooting/etc classes....

One small point (pardon the pun): know the laws of your jurisdiction too. In Texas there's a limit to the size and the type of knife you can carry. I know daggers and throwing knives are illegal and IIRC, a four-inch blade is max for carrying on your person. Seems a bit restrictive to me, but what I know about knife fighting wouldn't fill a quark, so maybe 4" is enough anyway.

Thanks to all of you for a good discussion. I've learned a lot in this thread.

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Old September 11, 2006, 12:34 AM   #34
tanksoldier
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1. How skilled at hand-to-hand combat is the average CCWer? The defender would have to be much more skilled or lucky than the attacker to block or disarm a knife attack barehanded.

2. You don't block the bullets, you move the gun out of line... much easier to do than a knife. Even for those with combatives training, many arm locks and other holds that will render a firearm useless will not prevent a knife attack.

Quote:
a skilled oponent can block and turn a knife attack. Try blocking and returning bullets...
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Old September 11, 2006, 11:17 AM   #35
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Unless the class is particularly reputable, I do not recommend a course at a shooting establishment to teach you knife defense. They often include one or two good techniques, but tend not to be very comprehensive. To anyone wishing to supplement their CCW training with some basics in knife defense, I would recommend a martial arts class that trains in empty-hand redirection. Examples are Aikido, Hapkido, and some forms of Jujitsu. If anyone is lucky enough to live near a reputable instructor in Krav Maga, you should definitely take advantage of that training opportunity, as Krav Maga is geared specifically toward military-style combative confrontations.

Other than that, the reality of knife-defense is that it is a practice in presenting non-vital target areas to the knife, and running like the dickens! When fighting empty-hand against a knife, the primary goal is to control the weapon. However, when fighting from CCW against a knife, the primary goal is to get FAR away from the knife and engage the target with your gun. Use your added range to your advantage!
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Old September 11, 2006, 12:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
a four-inch blade is max for carrying on your person. Seems a bit restrictive to me, but what I know about knife fighting wouldn't fill a quark, so maybe 4" is enough anyway.
It is 3" or less in most states. Consider yourself lucky. I have a tough time finding a good combat folder that is 3" or less. I currently carry a 2.99" Gerber Paraframe. I love the folding knife selection in the 3 to 4 inch range.
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Old September 11, 2006, 06:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
I can send my underage kids to school wiht a 2.5" folder so they can have a defense.

Really? Because my spiderco had a 2.5" blade and I got suspended from school on so many occasions for carrying it that it isnt even funny. You may want to recheck your laws... Federal (FEDERAL) law still reads " NO possession of weapons at any time". My mother is the contract manager for all school busses in the state of Maine, and for 6 years prior to her moving up here, she held the same position in the state of VT. She was also on the school board for Woodstock Union Highschool in VT for 13 years. Thats how I know these laws.


(and yes, I still chose to break them. )
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Old September 14, 2006, 11:13 AM   #38
Ronny
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watch this video

I apologize if this link has been posted before. I believe it's relevant to the topic of this thread, as this is what you're likely to face if the knifer is even moderately skilled with cut placement.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...k+vs+gun&hl=en

Basically, I advise a whole lot of fast backpedaling during the draw and shielding yourself with your non-shooting hand. Then RUN away while shooting.

If you just stand there and draw, you're going to be dead or dying when the ambulence arrives.
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Old September 14, 2006, 11:32 AM   #39
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Thanks for posting the video. I haven't seen it before and it sure illustrates what we've been talking about. Nice post.
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Old September 14, 2006, 11:57 AM   #40
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+1 Thanks Ronny. You definitely brought home the point so many of us are trying to make here.
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Old September 14, 2006, 01:03 PM   #41
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Remember also that, unless you hit a hard target (bone in the hip, torso, or head), the gun is not going to have the "knock back" effect necessary to stop the charge. The effect of "beating" the knife guy to the draw is that you will both be hurt, and probably you will be hurt worse.

Basically, there is no substitute for training in the martial arts. If you can't move away from an attacker, and if you can't put up an effective blocking arm while you're drawing, then you're missing a crucial component of your defensive platform.
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Old September 14, 2006, 03:17 PM   #42
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Many, many years ago when I wore a much younger man's shoes, I had the opportunity of attending a "private" class taught by the author of "Bloody Iron".

I had come to the conclusion, that were I camping and had to grab just one item and move (shtf) the one item I would grab would be a knife. With it I could build traps, make shelter, clean game. My only problem at that time is that I had no idea of how to "fight" with the edged weapon.

So, began a journey which even to this day, I continue. My last purchase was the Warrior Series of tapes put out by Lynn Thompson of "cold steel".

I have also attended the Rennisance Faire and talked to their "arms instructor". Gaining knowledge of the past, to understand that given a warriors training 1,000 years ago was still valid today.

My conclusion is that I always carry a knife. I have an extensive collection. I do not feel underarmed, as in close quarter combat, I will attack the flexor tendons of the gun hand, I will attack the hollow cavity in the pelivic area (blade upwards through the testicals into the hollow cavity, as there is no bone to deflect the blade in this area), I will also throw shots to the liver, and finally, there are the major artery's:

A knife, in close, is one of the deadlest weapons you can have. First and foremost it is a tool, but learn how to use it as a defensive weapon. A well trained man with a knife, close quarter combat, is gonna tear em' up. Yep, there is a 357 in a safe at the foot of my bed, punch in two digits and the electonics open it, but right next to my head is a tanto, ready, waiting, and probably just as deadly. The other plus, is if's it night when the gremlin's come in, no flash, no noise, just a loud shout and getting in close...then I can remove various pieces of their "humble" flesh!
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Old September 16, 2006, 04:00 AM   #43
Lloyd Smale
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I agree with Samurai to a point. Martial arts training is great ive had a little myself but the problem i have with it is to much time is wasted on form and the art and to little time is spent on actuall fighting. In the service we were trained in hand to hand and knife fighting but we were trained by a group of instructors that were versed in a few different martial art forms. They dispensed with the speaking and counting in korean and the forms and consentrated on what it takes to stay alive. I later trained some in Soo Bahk Do and it was great exercise for the body and mind and no doubt helped but i still believe for the average guy a more condensed version of hand to hand fighting is in order. Bottom line is Samurai is very right about one thing. Your best defense is to get the hell out of Dodge! Up close and personal a knife is a very deadly and metal scrary weapon and at point blank range your about wasting your time trying to draw a handgun and use it. You will be layed open before you get your hand on it. About the only hope you have is to be trained to understand that your about to be cut and #1 know that if you protect your vitals the cuts wont be fatal and #2 neutalize your threat (dont be passive) Its alot easier said then done and i dont know how id even react in a real world cituation.
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