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Old February 22, 2006, 12:51 PM   #1
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imr 4350 ok to use in garand loads?????

i have some 4350 i would like to use in some loads for my m-1 garand. i recently saw a article that said that imr-4895 or varget is what they recommended and not to use 4350 in gas operated autos. why???? any opinions????
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Old February 22, 2006, 01:27 PM   #2
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Why? because pressure at the gas port matters.

Why? because pressure at the gas port matters. For gas operated firearms the pressure curve matters a great deal.

For bolt actions and single shots the peak pressure matters and the pressure curve impacts performance but shifting pressure forward toward the muzzle (more of a slower powder) or back toward the receiver (faster powder) by inches won't matter nearly so much in a rifle barrel. (peak pressure at the muzzle and gas effect on the bullet at the crown ignored).

I haven't measured the pressures myself but when I've used slower powders that give higher pressures at the gas port (more area under the pressure curve which is why they tend to higher velocities) the action has had to pull the case out hard and sometimes bent the rim doing it. Likely enough the common explanation that the case is still pressed against the chamber walls by internal pressure is correct. Some say this flexes the operating rod and otherwise stresses the firearm.

A load that approximates the pressure curve the rifle is designed for will work best both for the rifle and for the brass. 4350 does not approximate the pressure curve the rifle was designed for - although 4350 may give superior velocity and fine accuracy in a bolt gun or single shot.

4064 will give a little higher loading density and typically fine accuracy because of the long grains bulking up a little. Short cut 4895 (not around in the heyday of the Garand) will tend to meter a little better. I use 4895 myself but would agree with Varget - each has many additional applications.

These aren't opinions this is the experience of many people over many years - keep reading.
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Old February 22, 2006, 01:27 PM   #3
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Burn rate

I'm pretty sure it's because the 4350 burns slower than the other two, which causes lots of problems with the action. Guess it can bend the op rod and other things. You can use varget in garands?
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Old February 22, 2006, 01:52 PM   #4
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During the past 37 years I have shot hundreds of rounds in a remington 742 auto loaded 30-06 with IMR4350. The bullets were 150 and 165 grs. matter of fact an old reloading manuel list 57.3 grs of 4350 as "factory" for 150 gr bullets at 2924fps.
I haven't used the 4350 since the early 80s' for the auto but my records show that I was getting pretty good groups with the 742, many as low as 3/8inches at 100yds.
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Old February 22, 2006, 02:26 PM   #5
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The extra port pressue of the slower burning 4350 will tend to over-operate your Garand. Say hello to bent op-rod. Not recommended.

This can be a problem. Around my place I load H4350 for the 1903A3 Springfield, but my dad uses IMR-4895 for the M-1 Garand. Have to be careful not to get the Springfield ammo into the M-1, but the M-1 ammo won't hurt the '03A3. I've recently loaded some rounds with Varget, aiming for 2600-fps or so with a 168, hoping this will work well in both the gas gun and the bolt gun.

But the common advice is don't use powders significantly slower than 4895 and 4064 in the GI gas guns. This is one area where the AR-15 direct-impingment system is superior to the M-1/M1A system, IMO.
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Old February 22, 2006, 11:10 PM   #6
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4350 might be great in a Rem 742 as there is no op-rod to consider. But for the M-1, I would stay away from 4350 as it will drive your op rod back with such force that it will bend or chip the rod.

4895 is what Lake City loaded MATCH ammo with, even when ball powder was loaded in everything else. So if the Army paid the extra cash to buy 4895 when making the most accurate ammo they could for the M-1, that tells me 4895 must be some good stuff. (H4895 is my favorite over the IMR)
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Old February 23, 2006, 12:51 PM   #7
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win308 has it correct. 4895 is the powder the Garand was designed for and operates best with. Quantrill
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