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Old November 7, 2005, 11:55 AM   #26
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You are thinking ahead and that's a good thing.
The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun.
The next rule is to not get shot.
Shooting your opponent is somewhere farther down the list.

Shooting someone who is shooting back at you is very different than target, or even IDPA shooting. Nobody wins a gunfight, they only survive them. The biggest factor in your survival potential is whether you got shot, and then how many times and where. Movement decreases the risk substantially. Distance and cover is preferable, but if all you have is your own movement to protect you, use it. Being able to return accurate, effective fire under those conditions is essential.
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Old November 7, 2005, 12:44 PM   #27
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In a time not that distant, we were taught to move to

our left, by stepping with the left foot and dropping into a crouch by bending your knees and raising your weapon to your alignment of eyes and shoot. By doing this you have reduced your size and moved. You also have reduced your time to raise your weapon up, (by lowering your body and raising your weapon at the same time) Both hands on weapon, it is very fast and accurate.

My first round would be going off prior to completing the total movement and probabley hit the person in the thigh or groin area. I train myself to do this all the time. I prefer a cross draw holster, than the waist in the woods, but I carry at the waist with CCW. The cross draw is a good one, for this because you are moving to your left and if you are right handed you are moving where your weapon was.

If at all possible get to cover quick, if not. Move stop shoot, move stop shoot.
Going to the ground is not all bad, but you have got to roll and shoot roll and shoot. Moving and shoot, is the key, you need to investigate this and practice.

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Old November 7, 2005, 01:01 PM   #28
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You're right Tim, in my opinion...

Try to keep it as simple as possible. During a gunfight bullets fly all over, there is no possible way of saying where they will and won't go, especially if the badguy is a "bad" shooter. Moving will not be any safer than standing still, but it will put you at a disadvantage of having to compensate for it. If you run dry move and reload, but most real gunfights don't last that long.

Also not looking where you are running is O.K. on a controlled range. But in the real world there are all kinds of obstacles to run into or trip over, and usually the first one down stays down.

And before anyone tries to tell me the "right way", just give Tim your opinion and leave it at that.
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Last edited by Rimrod; November 7, 2005 at 02:36 PM.
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Old November 7, 2005, 01:27 PM   #29
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We have found that most rounds fired at a flat surface only rise about 4-8 inches and travel in a flat trajectory till loss of energy and gravity take over.
I have read this, and tried it myself, and it is true. For this reason I would not recomend lying down. If you are lying on the ground and the BG misses you, we already know a lot of misses tend to go low. So he hits the ground anywhere in front of you, and you have your whole body down in the probable path of a richoche. Probably face first, too, so even if the bullet doesn't hit you, next time you are out shooting, watch the ground when you are bouncing those pop cans. Now imagine laying just on the other side of where that bullet just kicked up all that dirt and rocks. OUCH!!

Of course, if you are on pavement you would get a whole bunch of sparks in your eyes.

Personaly, I think I would rather remain standing.
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Old November 7, 2005, 04:00 PM   #30
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Stand to shoot as quickly as possible and as accurate as you can before he shoots you.
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Old November 7, 2005, 06:22 PM   #31
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Also not looking where you are running is O.K. on a controlled range. But in the real world there are all kinds of obstacles to run into or trip over, and usually the first one down stays down.
You make very good points. Am I allowed to say that?
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Old November 7, 2005, 08:06 PM   #32
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Keep moving. Also I was taught never to go prone in a urban enviroment because all the BGs crappy shots that are short will bounce riht off the concrete and right into you.
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Old November 7, 2005, 08:10 PM   #33
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Timothy75, . . . borrowing a page from the "oorah" manual, . . . hit the dirt.

Those on here who advocate not hitting the dirt have never been in the military, and far more than likely, . . . have never been in any kind of shooting combat. The dirt is your friend. Movement is not. Kneeling is not.

1) Totally disregarding earlier posters, . . . no you do not present a bigger target, . . . on the contrary, . . . about all that is available to shoot at is your head, . . . making the other shooter's job much harder.

2) Your off hand makes a fist, and your shooting hand sets the butt of the pistol right on top of it, . . . almost as good as a sand bag. You should be able to "sand bag" your opponent very quickly from this position.

3) Get a good sight picture and fire off 3 or 4 rounds and roll to your left.

4) Get another good sight picture and fire off the next 3 or 4.

5) It takes some practice to do this, . . . but it is worth it. It is also the way to stay alive when caught out in the open.

If you want to see this in reality, . . . set up a pop can at about chest level and get in a fighting/firing stance. Have a buddy give you a command to commence fire on the can, . . . then at another command, . . . try firing at the can on the ground. Far more than likely, . . . you will shoot way over the one on the ground. That is the edge for you when it is you in the dirt.

Remember the old military response is: First Rule, . . . never get caught out in the open, . . . but if you do, . . . Rule 2 is hit the ground and return fire.

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Old November 7, 2005, 08:25 PM   #34
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I think that moving to concealment or preferably cover, is the thing to do here. If possible or needed, shoot as you move. If they have not spotted you yet, then just KEEP moving.
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Old November 8, 2005, 03:04 PM   #35
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If it will help bullets that hit hard surfaces like cement or asphalt will travel about 4-8 inches above the ground. Bullets that hit dirt ricochet and jump up in the air at a much higher angle.

Looking at the original question there is no cover and no escape. You cannot avoid bullets because you cannot see them. Moving around is just as dangerous as standing still, and you will have to eventually shoot the badguy, or you will never stop running. And your movement will make it more difficult for you to hit him and will only give him more time to score a lucky hit.

And also kneeling may be more useful in a long distance shooting, there is no set answer on that question.

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Old November 8, 2005, 09:29 PM   #36
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The weaver stance is your best bet if your are practiced and plan to return fire immediately. If your undecide and aren't dead yet than better haul ass....
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Old November 9, 2005, 07:44 AM   #37
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I'm not sure just how this medium-to-long-distance gunfight just materialized out in the open, but if it did, and you are a fairly good shot, and the BG's aren't, do whatever puts killing shots on the BG's the earliest. [That is probably shooting with two hands, standing. YMMV.] Probably the same answer if the BG's can shoot, except you may lose. If you can't shoot, run like hell, changing directions abruptly from time to time. Whether you live will depend on how well they can shoot.
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Old November 9, 2005, 08:32 AM   #38
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Dwight 55,

having been in the military, we were taught to MOVE. The drill was called "Fire and Maneuver". You would run to cover, hit the dirt, and lay suppressing fire for your buddy would then move. Your buddy would then hit the dirt and lay suppressing fire. Then you would get up and run to the next point of cover. The whole point of the exercise was that you and your buddy would "leapfrog" (alternating tasks of running and shooting, laying suppressing fire) and advance towards the enemy and flank them.

So you are right, hitting the dirt is important. You have to move, but you better move to cover.

Cover: stops bullets.

Concealment: hides you, but does not stop bullets.

In the Urban scenario, and being alone, I would move to cover while drawing my weapon. Ideally I would fire from cover and move to flank my enemy as best I could. Being alone, that would probably mean I would lay suppressing fire as I ran from cover to cover.

If you are not running, shooting, or communicating, you should be reloading.
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Old November 9, 2005, 10:56 AM   #39
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Same problem in a different era... I am an active fencer and also pretty up on the history of the sport. The problem you state here seems to be "do I concentrate on my attack or my defense?" Gun or sword it is the same problem and perhaps the old masters can shed some light on it...

Fence is a derivative of the word Defence. That is because the first thing you were taught upon enterring a fencing school (salle) was to DEFEND yourself. The prime idea was to not be hit. Teachers were paid good money by students and or their parents to see that they would not be killed their first time out. The entire primary focus therefore was on not being hit. You learned to parry first and to control distance before working on attacking. I think that should be the same focus we should have in an encounter armed with guns.

Old guides to dueling with swords would also advocate the learned fencer take a step back immediately at the start of hostilities. Even with swords it was understood that distance was your friend. Standing at a range where even an ignorant clod could run you through only gives advantage to the clod. Get away and use time and distance to your advantage. The odds are that if you are taking the time to seriously study you will be better prepared to use that time and distance than the uninformed.

Take this old advice to guns. Our first goal should be to survive. The first thing that would help preserve my life is increasing the range and making a harder target of myself through movement. That is what I am going to do. Even if it only deceases the odd of a hit for both myself and my adversary equally it still adds up to less of a chance of me getting shot and that is a plus in my book! Now if we can assume that we are likely more skilled than our foe, and by the fact that we practice with our weapons and are interested enough to research such items I believe the odds are we will be more skilled, then the addition of distance and movement, while reducing the chances to hit for our oppent will not hinder us as badly. Now we are not only reducing his chance of hitting us but we are reducing his chances greater than we reduce our own.

Me, I plan on backing away and to my left while I draw and return fire. I will go left for a simple reason, it feels better. When practicing this I find it easier to travers my weapon from left to right as I step back and to the left than the other way around. As much as possible I plan on increasing that distance until my opponent is a dot on the horizon if need be.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:14 AM   #40
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"serpentine, stanley, serpentine" who knows the movie that quote is from?

depends on a lot more situation information, is it a drive by, hit the dirt,
is he standing there trying to go cowboy? run and shoot. If you get him clenching his eyes shut and turning his head as he tries to shoot, you will most likely make it.

by running i mean RUNNING. everytime you get twice as far away from him you are half the size. 20 ft to 40 ft, 1/2 the size, 40 to 80, now 1/4 the original size. most BG's have never shot at paper, most never use the sights. In fact in a surprising amount, The first use of the weapon for real is in the act that gets them arrested or killed. But do not count on this.

Train to strike out Bobby Bonds, but be really happy when the need arises you are facing a T baller.
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Old November 9, 2005, 01:59 PM   #41
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"serpentine, stanley, serpentine" who knows the movie that quote is from?
Peter Falk to Adam Arkin. "The In-Laws?" The father-in-law is CIA or something like that. Very funny flick. Remade with Michael Douglas and ???, right?

Back on topic, I think I need to change the way I train. I have never shot while moving. Can't do that at the range, so I think I either need to spend some time in the desert, or some time at IDPA. (Or is ISPC better?)
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
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Old November 9, 2005, 02:16 PM   #42
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Whatever you choose to do, do it quick because there is a very good chance it will all be over in 6 seconds or less.
My definition of Gun Control--- A steady grip and hitting your target.

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Old November 9, 2005, 02:59 PM   #43
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I think the first thing you need to do is to take distance into consideration. If the threat is greater than 50 feet, a well aimed shot is better than a spray and pray. Realistically, I'm not sure how many of us can hit a target while we are moving. Your skill level should also be a major factor. If you are a very good shot and the other shooter is shooting all over the place, I would take a well aimed shot and try and take him out (It beats spraying lead until we both run out of ammo and have to bludgeon each other with our pistols... Glocks are not great bludgeon weapons! ).

The flip side to that is shooting and then moving since the shooter may also get "lucky". I would definitely stay on my feet though since crouching decreases mobility. I would consider crouching if it was a really long distance shot (more than 100 feet) and there really wasn't any cover at all (assuming that I have to shoot because he either has a weapon drawn on me or is already firing upon me).

I guess this is another reason why we should practice at greater distances. One other major factor is the number of bystanders near the other shooter. I know self preservation is important, but I would not spray and pray in a packed area. Besides, I could always use the other people as cover! Just kidding!
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:26 PM   #44
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Those on here who advocate not hitting the dirt have never been in the military, and far more than likely, . . . have never been in any kind of shooting combat. The dirt is your friend. Movement is not. Kneeling is not.
Dwight 55 said it, and I concur. When shots are fired at you, the safest place to be an instant later is as flat on the ground as you can make yourself.
Then, after you have lowered your profile and gauged the situation, you can return fire, roll right or left, stand and run, or crawfish your ass back out of there.

Not many good choices, I'll admit, but then when you are being shot at,
You probably won't have time to stand around and weigh a lot of options in your mind.

just my opinion,,,

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Old November 10, 2005, 12:43 AM   #45
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Between the two options of stand or kneel, kneeling is the better option as it reduces your size as a target and will provide you with a more stable platform.

Of course, movement is a better idea, assuming the threat is close. I heard a guy speak who was part of the whole Blackhawk Down fiasco. As our soldiers were forced to cross a lot of open areas, then were often engaged in these open areas. The speaker noted that for targets inside of 75 yards, he would shoot while on the move, but the shooting tended to be more of suppressive fire than actual target shooting.

When targets were >75 yards, he had no problem with dropping to one knee for a stable shooting platform and getting a proper bead on the target and shooting the target.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Movement is probably a good idea but I wonder, if I can just place one accurate shot I can end the damn situation all together without all the running around.
Keep in mind that the soldiers engaged in such practices were wearing body armor, had the benefits of have brother soldiers to help neutralize threats, and had training and battle experience that undoubtedly helped them perform much better than folks without such training and experience. There is a HUGE if about whether you could place a single accurate shot and end the situation all together.

Why is the if so huge? Many reasons. First, you are assuming that you will in fact be able to make that one accurate shot that will end the situation before the bad guy nails you and that the bad guy will be incapacitated by your accurate shot. Second, you are taking it for granted that your gun will function 100% properly. Third, you are assuming that your firing will protect you from the firing by the bad guy. Generally speaking, guns and ammo make for poor ballistic protection from incoming rounds. Fourth, you are assuming omnipotent situtational awareness where you 'know' that there is only one bad guy that you must engage in order to come out safely. It may be that while being stationary and taking out the bad guy in your sights, one of his fellow bad guys will be shooting at you as an easy target.
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Old November 10, 2005, 12:08 PM   #46
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How about just running period? Like they say "you break it you buy it" I'm not comfortable just letting lead fly for the sake of movement. Thats something the BG would do not us. And it sounds like alot of you are implying the only time to shoot is when moving or behind cover, yet I doubt you spend you whole range sessions doing that. What happened to the old one shot draws from concealement? Dont they fit into defensive shooting anymore?
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Old November 11, 2005, 04:07 PM   #47
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Been reading this thread for a few days...Interesting...

"In a gunfight with no escape and no cover would it be best to kneel and sacrifice mobility or shoot standing?"

My .02:

There are way too many variables for any one "black and white" answer.

- "No Escape and no cover..."? Are we in the middle of a dry lake bed?

- Is cover close by?

- If, so, how close, and can you reach it in a couple of seconds?

- If so, is it high cover or low cover?

(TRAINING...Hint hint..)

- How many BG's are firing at you?

- Are they firing at you from cover?

- Are you alone?

- What type of weapon are you carrying?

- (Handgun) Was it holstered or ready for action when you were fired on?

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Old November 11, 2005, 10:37 PM   #48
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The only situation I could think of where there is no cover or concealment is if you are in an empty alleyway or on a road and a BG is drawing his weapon on you. So I would think the best solution would get you out of his sights the fatest while allowing you to return fire effectively. To me it seems that going prone only does this once(dropping out of his sights limits mobility), while staying on your feet and moving does it constantly.
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Old November 14, 2005, 06:21 AM   #49
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Alleyways are inherently dangerous, as the high walls make wonderful "bullet channels"

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Old November 14, 2005, 08:50 PM   #50
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If I was being shot at from a 100 yards, I'd sure as hell lay on the ground. If I were being shot at from 10 feet I'm moving and shooting. Anything in between depends. I'd have to say, inside of most realistic distances in which I would expect to be using a handgun to defend myself, I'd be shooting while moving, but not kneeling as I'd want mobility at close range. Also, people who miss while being shot at tend to flinch and shoot low. I don't see the advantage in kneeling, anyway, at close ranges. If you put a silhouette on the ground or three feet off the ground insode of 25 yards- I don't see the difference in hitting it. Move it unpredictably and it gets a lot harder to hit.
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