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Old July 17, 2005, 10:44 PM   #1
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CCW question in MO, kinda odd really.

I was at Bass Pro this sat. and overheard the instructor (indoor range) talking to some feller about CCW that the bad guy has to be no less than 7 ft before you are able to fire in self defence. I live in Ark. so this hasnt ever came up. In my opinion 7ft is fist fighting distance not anything else except maybee a bat or bar. If I saw a feller comin at me with a weapon of anykind to do bodily damage, common sense would kick in and tell you to drop them. Or even if you saw someone else being messed with a ways away. He said anything over 7ft is a jail sentence. But in all sencierity (spelling) if you unload on the perp and they croak, well then 7ft would be easy to say I guess.
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Old July 17, 2005, 11:06 PM   #2
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I remember speaking to some Sheriff's Department officers who told me they were instructed that they should only fire at a knife-wielding subject within a distance of 7 YARDS. One of these officers related an incident where the bad guy was kind of hovering just beyond the limit with a knife. All-in-all, this is a pretty arbitrary rule, as a running man with a knife can cover 21 feet pretty quickly. Nevertheless, this just shows how these armchair experts can get things all twisted up. The real yardstick in the event of a use of force in self defense is the reasonableness of the force based on the totality of the circumstances. The DA will evaluate the case that way, and so (hopefully) will the jury in a civil case.
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Old July 17, 2005, 11:19 PM   #3
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Yeah, he is greatly mistaken and handing out bad info.

I think he's referring to the 'Tueller Drill', which is a person within 21 feet can close and strike a killing blow with a weapon in 1.5 seconds.

So, the general thinking is, if someone is within that 21 feet range....Justified use of lethal force will be easier to defend.
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Old July 17, 2005, 11:22 PM   #4
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Tueller Drill
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Old July 17, 2005, 11:52 PM   #5
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I have used their range quite abit and there is one gentleman that works there that likes think he is a expert on all things, as far as that goes I have not met one person in their gun department I would consider Knowledgeable about anything, but most of them are nice guys.
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Old July 18, 2005, 12:23 AM   #6
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How are they going to know that it was less then 7 feet (considering what you were told were true)? Powder burns, I guess. Find ammo with BIG muzzle flash

Seriously, 7 feet for self defense doesn't hold water & should be easy to shoot down in court (not that any of us want to wind up there).
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Old July 18, 2005, 09:17 AM   #7
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7 feet? If they've a knife, you're sliced and diced before you can react & draw.
Even at 7 yds. someone can be right on top of you before you can actually pull the trigger. Talk about powder burn!
Ask yourself this, "If someone opens fire on me with a rifle at 100 yds and I return fire... is that still self-defense?" -OR- "If someone attempts to kidnap my daughter who's riding her bike in front of my house while I mow the lawn 25 yds. away... is that self defense?"

I think we would all agree that carrying a deadly weapon and being a responsible law abiding Good Guy means our "awareness" level will be higher than others since no one I knows, really WANTS to use said CCW... so your eye catches things farther out and categorizes them as friend, foe, neutral, etc.
And I HATE it when someone sneaks up to 7 ft or less without me being aware of their presence (watch Josey Wales for a great sneaking quote )
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
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Old July 18, 2005, 10:42 AM   #8
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Yea, its gotta be 7 yards. I have an associates in ADmin of Justice, and I distinctly remember my professor (ex deputy chief of police in DC) say that 21 feet was the range at which just about anything a suspect had was considered lethal.
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Old July 18, 2005, 11:10 AM   #9
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Well 7ft or 7yds in my opinion is really behind the desk accuracy. Meaning some moron behind a desk figured it out. You caint really put a ft or yd distance to a freak with a weapon of any kind.
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Old July 18, 2005, 12:03 PM   #10
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Remember, 7 yards is the standard distance for someone who does not have a projectile weapon being a threat.

It need not be the point at which you actually fire. For example: if someone has a knife and is threatening you, it would be warranted to draw your weapon. Once you have drawn and on target.. your reaction time to fire is substantially faster.
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Old July 18, 2005, 03:50 PM   #11
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Realisticly, most people would rather just deck it out instead of using a weapon of any sort. If a feller pulled a knife or club on me I would try to get something like a good size stick or good size rock and pumble him till he drops it then just give him a good dose of down home for even threating me or anyone else. I always refer to fists before tossin lead. But in some cases their aint no rocks or sticks. So, just kickem in the sack.
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Old July 18, 2005, 05:04 PM   #12
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If it was to happen to me, the BG would be on the ground with life essential fluids leaking from multiple holes and the report would say "close enough that I was in fear of my life". In Wa. State that is all that is necessary. Of course the BG has to have the means such as edged weapon, gun, baseball bat, big stick. I'm sure not going to measure first.

Some fool broke into an of duty officer's house one morning a few years ago. BG attacked the officer with a piece of the door frame that he had broken out (honest, that is what the report said). Officer dropped him w/ 2 from his 357. Self defense is allowed here even with the disparity of weapons.
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Old July 19, 2005, 07:09 PM   #13
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a little ego talking here

hey crash, feel free to take time to grab a stick or a rock. take your time looking for one. In the meantime you would be sliced and diced by any good street fighter. You must not value your life to much or your ego is the size of a car.......

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Old July 20, 2005, 06:15 AM   #14
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at 7 yards, 21 feet, 252 inches, a weapon of any sort would cause me to draw, and prepare to fire. Of course I would also be backing up to demonstrate that I attempted to avoid the confrontation. Along with this I will yell as loud, as humanly possible "STOP DROP THE WEAPON". I want as many people as possible to hear me yelling this. None of this however, inside of this distance, would preclude me reserving the right to open fire.
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Old July 23, 2005, 07:34 PM   #15
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hey I live close to bass pro, go there often, got to say some of the range people a complete idiots!!!!!! don't take anything what they say without finding out yourself... most of them are just regular guys working there, with no extra knowledge of guns in general.... there are only 2 guys there that have any kind of smarts..............................
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Old July 24, 2005, 03:45 PM   #16
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understood on the not knowing. there are some of those around this forum if you search just a bit. I guess that is where people get confused on certain subjects is from people that dont know all the facts. That one feller that he was talking to I hope learns different.
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Old July 24, 2005, 08:08 PM   #17
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Tueller Plus

The Tueller Drill established that a person with a contact weapon is potentially a lethal threat at 7 yards. It takes the average person 1.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 aimed shots if they are aware of the threat. It also takes an average person 1.5 seconds to cross that same distance, so what you have is MAD, mutually assured destruction. Most of you on here know that you can't count on a bullet causing an instanct stop. If the person has a firearm and they are threatening you with it, you will most likely be justified in using defensive lethal force beyond that 7 yards. Remember that the tueller drill defined 7 yards for contact weapons, axe, baseball bat, knife etc. The distance justified is based on the circumstances and not any model. The law does not list any distance and police don't file charges based on a distance formula. You're right to be wary of such a story. Anyone who has gone through a good CCW course should be very confident that they know when they can and can't use lethal force. If you have doubts and live in MO just consult RSMO 563 and it is spelled out for you.

Last edited by kcdreamer; July 25, 2005 at 05:45 AM.
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Old July 25, 2005, 12:28 PM   #18
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kcdreamer +1

Sounds like range ninjas. I guess if the guy was 8 yards away you could jump up 3 feet after he went down.

The law is out there in black and white. CCW classes fill in the blanks.
Direct not Diplomatic.

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Old July 25, 2005, 08:57 PM   #19
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I guess we can just carry a 13" 12guage (I know illegal) double barrel under our jacket and if they are 7yds they will be about 10 or more afterwards. LOL!! And definatly will not be getting back up. 2 shots or even one of buckshot should do the trick.
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