Primers backing out

garandfan · November 16, 2002, 10:17 PM

I loaded up some 270 rounds and on some of them the primers were sticking out slightly after being fired. The primers were not in this position when I first loaded them. I do not know what could cause this because I am not even close to the max load, and my previous 20 rounds with everything the same did not do this. The only change was a .020 decrease in OAL. Is this a cause for concern?

LAH · November 16, 2002, 10:37 PM

I'm going to guess excess headspace. Probably from over sizing your cases? Might not hurt to stick a no go gauge in chamber. Probably if you neck size the cases you just fired, reloaded and fired them, the primers will stay seated in the pockets.

Some thing else that would help the guys here answer your question, just how lite is the load you're using?

C.R.Sam · November 16, 2002, 11:39 PM

Agree with LAH...

And, sometimes a really light load will do that. Not enough pressure to back the case up over the primer after the firing pin used up the headspace.

Sam

MikeTx · November 17, 2002, 08:05 AM

It might help if you state what caliber you are loading. If it's an auto pistol caliber that headspaces on the rim, OAL will not cause that. If you are firing really light loads that is probably what it is. But again, we don't know the caliber.

C.R.Sam · November 17, 2002, 11:16 AM

I read the initial post as .270 caliber.

Guess it could have been quantity 270.

.270 revolver would be interesting. Specially indoors.

Sam

garandfan · November 17, 2002, 11:47 AM

I'm reloading for a .270. I didn't think it was the gun, because in the same session, I shot some factory ammo and everything was fine. I ordered the stoney point headspace gauge to find out for sure and to fix it. Also, when I fix the problem, would it be wise to throw out that brass or could I resize it correctly and use it again. Thanks for your help.

Edward429451 · November 17, 2002, 11:56 AM

Had the same problem in my .308's with too light of a charge of 4895. Upped the charge 2 gr and they was OK. Should be able to reuse the brass...

garandfan · November 17, 2002, 02:14 PM

The reason I am beginning to believe its the headspace because about a week ago, I loaded 20 rounds with the starting load and all went well. I remebered that a few days ago, the resizing die was taken off the turret and I probably screwed it in too much when I put it back in. I'll check the headspace and if that's not it, I'll try a bigger charge.

alan · November 17, 2002, 06:18 PM

Just in case you haven't "solved" the primer backing out problem, it could be a "headspace" problem, of a special sort.

While the headspace on the rifle might be perfect, if in resizing, you had set the shoulder back to much, the ammunition loaded with those cases would, in effect, suffer from a "excess headspace condition". Such reloading practices tend to shorten case life too.

This problem is easily solved by readjusting your sizing die so as not to set the shouilder back any more than is necessary for fairly easy chambering of loaded rounds, I assume you are using a bolt action rifle.

LAH · November 18, 2002, 06:38 AM

I think Alan has hit the nail on the head and I would back the die off and try again. If you put some lube on the fired cartridge neck and screw the die down a 1/2 turn or so at a time and keep sizing the same case till you have all or 99% of the case neck sized (the lube makes this easy to see) and then try the case in your rifle. If the bolt closes easy enough to suit you I'd go with that die setting.

Make sure the OAL of the case is within spec. as the case mouth can be touching in the rifle chamber and you might mistake it for the case shoulder touching and screw the die in more than it needs to be. This was a mistake I made years ago.

MikeTx · November 18, 2002, 07:22 AM

Sorry. I thought the post was the amount of 270 rounds. I can see it now.

Desert Pete · November 18, 2002, 02:23 PM

I agree with CR Sam. I've seen this occur with a load that is too light.

JerryM · November 21, 2002, 10:34 AM

I would also guess that headspace is the problem from not correctly adjusting the sizing die.

For those cases which had the backed out primer, you can do one of two things, which you would do for slightly excessive headspace in a rifle.

First, you can load the rounds with the bullets contacting the lands hard enough to feel some pressure when closing the bolt. You should see land marks on the bullet if you try it to check the length. Note that this raises pressures so reduce your loads two or three grains below your normal max.

Second, you can neck up the cases to something like .30 for the .270. Hopefully this won't collapse the necks or shoulder. I do this for a 30-06 which will close on a no-go gage, using a .338 tapered expander button. After necking up the case, then start necking it down to .270 checking often until it just enters the chamber with slightly greater than the normal chambering pressure. The case is then headspacing on the intersection of the neck and the shoulder. This is more trouble, but I prefer it slightly to the other method, especially with new cases if the rifle has excessive, but not dangerous, headspace.

Let us know what you find out.

Jerry

David Wile · November 21, 2002, 03:32 PM

Hey folks,

I'll throw out one more idea to consider based on my personal experience. Many years ago, I had been using about 200 Speer cases in 9mm, and I had reloaded these cases many times with moderate loads and had no problems with the cases. At some point in time, I was experimenting and loaded my Speer cases with 155 grain cast bullets at a much higher pressure level.
After shooting these hotter loads, it was obvious the primers were flattened much more than normal. After re-sizing these cases, I found that some of the cases would no longer hold a new primer properly. Upon closer examination, it was clear to me that the primer pockets on all the cases had been enlarged, and, with some really bad ones, I found I could push a new primer in the pocket with my thumb.

I had used these cases for many moderate level reloadings, but it was apparent to me that my hot loading had ruined these cases by enlarging the primer pockets. I generally do not use hot loadings, so this was my only experience with enlarged primer pockets.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

alan · November 21, 2002, 05:11 PM

Davis Wile:

Without more infrmation, one can only speculate. For instance, what is/was your "moderate load" and what was the "hotter" load, aside from bullet weight that you mentioned.

In any case, firing "hot loads" in any cartridge cases, can certainly cause "loose" primer pockets, not to mention causing other, more serious problems. Brass is cheap, bent or broken guns are more expensive, and physical damage to oneself or others could well be a whole lot more expensive.

Gewehr98 · November 21, 2002, 07:30 PM

I did that when I began reloading for my 8mm Mausers. Factory ammo didn't, my handloads did. I set the sizing die so the resized case would fit snugly when chambered in the rifle. Only when I got the pressures closer to European milspec did the primers stay flush with the case heads.

November 16, 2002, 10:17 PM	#1
garandfan Member Join Date: June 18, 2002 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 24	Primers backing out I loaded up some 270 rounds and on some of them the primers were sticking out slightly after being fired. The primers were not in this position when I first loaded them. I do not know what could cause this because I am not even close to the max load, and my previous 20 rounds with everything the same did not do this. The only change was a .020 decrease in OAL. Is this a cause for concern? __________________ "To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace"-George Washington

November 17, 2002, 11:47 AM	#6
garandfan Member Join Date: June 18, 2002 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 24	I'm reloading for a .270. I didn't think it was the gun, because in the same session, I shot some factory ammo and everything was fine. I ordered the stoney point headspace gauge to find out for sure and to fix it. Also, when I fix the problem, would it be wise to throw out that brass or could I resize it correctly and use it again. Thanks for your help. __________________ "To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace"-George Washington

November 17, 2002, 02:14 PM	#8
garandfan Member Join Date: June 18, 2002 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 24	The reason I am beginning to believe its the headspace because about a week ago, I loaded 20 rounds with the starting load and all went well. I remebered that a few days ago, the resizing die was taken off the turret and I probably screwed it in too much when I put it back in. I'll check the headspace and if that's not it, I'll try a bigger charge. __________________ "To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace"-George Washington

November 21, 2002, 10:34 AM	#13
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	I would also guess that headspace is the problem from not correctly adjusting the sizing die. For those cases which had the backed out primer, you can do one of two things, which you would do for slightly excessive headspace in a rifle. First, you can load the rounds with the bullets contacting the lands hard enough to feel some pressure when closing the bolt. You should see land marks on the bullet if you try it to check the length. Note that this raises pressures so reduce your loads two or three grains below your normal max. Second, you can neck up the cases to something like .30 for the .270. Hopefully this won't collapse the necks or shoulder. I do this for a 30-06 which will close on a no-go gage, using a .338 tapered expander button. After necking up the case, then start necking it down to .270 checking often until it just enters the chamber with slightly greater than the normal chambering pressure. The case is then headspacing on the intersection of the neck and the shoulder. This is more trouble, but I prefer it slightly to the other method, especially with new cases if the rifle has excessive, but not dangerous, headspace. Let us know what you find out. Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

November 21, 2002, 07:30 PM	#16
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	How about a bumped shoulder AND a light load? I did that when I began reloading for my 8mm Mausers. Factory ammo didn't, my handloads did. I set the sizing die so the resized case would fit snugly when chambered in the rifle. Only when I got the pressures closer to European milspec did the primers stay flush with the case heads. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

November 16, 2002, 10:37 PM	#2
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	I'm going to guess excess headspace. Probably from over sizing your cases? Might not hurt to stick a no go gauge in chamber. Probably if you neck size the cases you just fired, reloaded and fired them, the primers will stay seated in the pockets. Some thing else that would help the guys here answer your question, just how lite is the load you're using?

November 16, 2002, 11:39 PM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Agree with LAH... And, sometimes a really light load will do that. Not enough pressure to back the case up over the primer after the firing pin used up the headspace. Sam

November 17, 2002, 08:05 AM	#4
MikeTx Junior member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 227	It might help if you state what caliber you are loading. If it's an auto pistol caliber that headspaces on the rim, OAL will not cause that. If you are firing really light loads that is probably what it is. But again, we don't know the caliber.

November 17, 2002, 11:16 AM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I read the initial post as .270 caliber. Guess it could have been quantity 270. .270 revolver would be interesting. Specially indoors. Sam

November 17, 2002, 11:56 AM	#7
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Had the same problem in my .308's with too light of a charge of 4895. Upped the charge 2 gr and they was OK. Should be able to reuse the brass...

November 17, 2002, 06:18 PM	#9
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Just in case you haven't "solved" the primer backing out problem, it could be a "headspace" problem, of a special sort. While the headspace on the rifle might be perfect, if in resizing, you had set the shoulder back to much, the ammunition loaded with those cases would, in effect, suffer from a "excess headspace condition". Such reloading practices tend to shorten case life too. This problem is easily solved by readjusting your sizing die so as not to set the shouilder back any more than is necessary for fairly easy chambering of loaded rounds, I assume you are using a bolt action rifle.

November 18, 2002, 06:38 AM	#10
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	I think Alan has hit the nail on the head and I would back the die off and try again. If you put some lube on the fired cartridge neck and screw the die down a 1/2 turn or so at a time and keep sizing the same case till you have all or 99% of the case neck sized (the lube makes this easy to see) and then try the case in your rifle. If the bolt closes easy enough to suit you I'd go with that die setting. Make sure the OAL of the case is within spec. as the case mouth can be touching in the rifle chamber and you might mistake it for the case shoulder touching and screw the die in more than it needs to be. This was a mistake I made years ago.

November 18, 2002, 07:22 AM	#11
MikeTx Junior member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 227	Sorry. I thought the post was the amount of 270 rounds. I can see it now.

November 18, 2002, 02:23 PM	#12
Desert Pete Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 44	I agree with CR Sam. I've seen this occur with a load that is too light.

November 21, 2002, 03:32 PM	#14
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey folks, I'll throw out one more idea to consider based on my personal experience. Many years ago, I had been using about 200 Speer cases in 9mm, and I had reloaded these cases many times with moderate loads and had no problems with the cases. At some point in time, I was experimenting and loaded my Speer cases with 155 grain cast bullets at a much higher pressure level. After shooting these hotter loads, it was obvious the primers were flattened much more than normal. After re-sizing these cases, I found that some of the cases would no longer hold a new primer properly. Upon closer examination, it was clear to me that the primer pockets on all the cases had been enlarged, and, with some really bad ones, I found I could push a new primer in the pocket with my thumb. I had used these cases for many moderate level reloadings, but it was apparent to me that my hot loading had ruined these cases by enlarging the primer pockets. I generally do not use hot loadings, so this was my only experience with enlarged primer pockets. Best wishes, Dave Wile

November 21, 2002, 05:11 PM	#15
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Davis Wile: Without more infrmation, one can only speculate. For instance, what is/was your "moderate load" and what was the "hotter" load, aside from bullet weight that you mentioned. In any case, firing "hot loads" in any cartridge cases, can certainly cause "loose" primer pockets, not to mention causing other, more serious problems. Brass is cheap, bent or broken guns are more expensive, and physical damage to oneself or others could well be a whole lot more expensive.