The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Personally, this doctrine is difficult to adhere to!

cgraham · May 2, 2006, 01:03 AM

We may be saying the same thing in different ways, Blackwater. One may draw with the intent to shoot, but changing circumstances may modify that intention.

If the BG throws his arms in the air or runs away at the sight of the drawing gun, you don't shoot, do you? Or maybe as a LEO you can shoot if a suspect ignores a police order to stop. I don't have that authority.

A LEO can get away with things a civilian cannot - LEO's enjoy a greater measure of benefit of the doubt, I believe. They are certified GGs. Sure, an internal investigation may be unpleasant.

The civilian perspective is rather different. As a civilian, being arrested, imprisoned and having charges preferred, followed by a few days in court hoping to prove one's innocence are a lot worse.

I absolutely agree a civilian should retreat if it's an option. Unless the civilian is assaulted and has wounds to show it (outside of his home) he is probably going to have to prove his innocence to an extent a LEO would not have to.

I just want to make the point that the LEO and civilian situations are not comparable in practice, even if they are the same in law.

There are these nasty scenarios where a civilian may be confronted by a gathering threat (closing punks in a parking lot - lets say a couple of threats are uttered by them); nowhere to run to. I think a natural response would be to seek a locationto prevent encirclement, hand on weapon. The problem here is establishing means and intent. If one BG deploys a weapon and positions himself to use it, both criteria are satisfied, and a draw with intent to shoot would likely be permissable. But if the BGs scatter and you shoot, you are going to jail. So the "intent to shoot" had better be provisional.

I entirely agree a little common sense goes a long way. Witholding a shot if the threat is dissipated, however, is not common sense, it is in this instance, the law (for me, anyway).

There are other situations where the threat is so imminent that there is no option other than to draw and shoot, because there can't be time for the situation to change.

I hope I am never in either situation. However I'm seeking the mental preparation for the proper response if either should warrant it.

Discussions such as these may be "splitting hairs", but I find them helpful in developing a mind-set to respond appropriately in various situations. As such, every opinion is food for thought.

C

Seeking Knowledge; Hoping for Wisdom.

May 2, 2006, 01:03 AM	#8
cgraham Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Posts: 47	"Intend to fire" We may be saying the same thing in different ways, Blackwater. One may draw with the intent to shoot, but changing circumstances may modify that intention. If the BG throws his arms in the air or runs away at the sight of the drawing gun, you don't shoot, do you? Or maybe as a LEO you can shoot if a suspect ignores a police order to stop. I don't have that authority. A LEO can get away with things a civilian cannot - LEO's enjoy a greater measure of benefit of the doubt, I believe. They are certified GGs. Sure, an internal investigation may be unpleasant. The civilian perspective is rather different. As a civilian, being arrested, imprisoned and having charges preferred, followed by a few days in court hoping to prove one's innocence are a lot worse. I absolutely agree a civilian should retreat if it's an option. Unless the civilian is assaulted and has wounds to show it (outside of his home) he is probably going to have to prove his innocence to an extent a LEO would not have to. I just want to make the point that the LEO and civilian situations are not comparable in practice, even if they are the same in law. There are these nasty scenarios where a civilian may be confronted by a gathering threat (closing punks in a parking lot - lets say a couple of threats are uttered by them); nowhere to run to. I think a natural response would be to seek a locationto prevent encirclement, hand on weapon. The problem here is establishing means and intent. If one BG deploys a weapon and positions himself to use it, both criteria are satisfied, and a draw with intent to shoot would likely be permissable. But if the BGs scatter and you shoot, you are going to jail. So the "intent to shoot" had better be provisional. I entirely agree a little common sense goes a long way. Witholding a shot if the threat is dissipated, however, is not common sense, it is in this instance, the law (for me, anyway). There are other situations where the threat is so imminent that there is no option other than to draw and shoot, because there can't be time for the situation to change. I hope I am never in either situation. However I'm seeking the mental preparation for the proper response if either should warrant it. Discussions such as these may be "splitting hairs", but I find them helpful in developing a mind-set to respond appropriately in various situations. As such, every opinion is food for thought. C Seeking Knowledge; Hoping for Wisdom.