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Daugherty16 · November 25, 2009, 12:35 PM

Okay, assume this encounter took place in a location you wouldn't normally think about avoiding. I concede the point about taking your wife out from time to time!

To take this discussion to a slightly different plane, let me pose the following:

As i already said, and others agree, 5 dudes coming at a middle age couple is an obvious disparity of force sufficient to create a reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. So, when does that threat become "legal"? What i mean is, when have the gang satisfied the three requirements so you would be legally justified to draw and shoot?

1.Intent. If they say, "give up your money or die", they've signalled their intent - to rob you, and perhaps kill you. If they threaten you or display a weapon, they satisfy the intent question also. What if they don't? What if it starts with a guy trying to bum a cigarette, then there's 2 guys starting to argue with you, then 5 guys all obviously agitated and shouting crap at you but they haven't threatened you with violence yet or closed the gap between you. Do they have to start beating on you or grab your wife before their intent is clear? What would a reasonable person deduce from the same circumstances?

2. Ability. Yeah, 5 guys could almost certainly beat the crap out of me. I'm not bruce (lee or willis). Even if i could take one, or even 2, down with me, i'm eventually going down and the rest of them would still be standing (and angrier). So yeah, ability here doesn't even require them to display a weapon. If they display a weapon, all bets are off. Then i believe they would satisfy Ability, Intent and Opportunity.

3. Opportunity. When could they actually take you down? A guy with a knife isn't an imminent threat from 60 feet away, but from 60 inches certainly would be. what if they have a couple of baseball bats? Same thing. What about fists? How close do you let them get before you pull? Before you shoot? 10 feet? 20 feet?

Just asking. This is the kind of scenario that turns me cold - with my wife or kids in jeopardy and there is no right answer, no immediate "guy in the bedroom holding a knife shoot NOW" recognition of the imminent peril. It might seem like it escalates quickly, but in reality this could take several minutes to go down or build up, as you prefer.

Generally speaking, it is considered unlawful to draw if your aren't - at that moment - also justified in shooting, whether you do or do not then shoot. In a case like this, i expect that drawing the gun would immediately cause 1 of 2 things. Either they would vanish, or they would attack. If they vanish, fine. If they attack, you shoot. Might a reasonable person (ie., member of a jury)think your act of drawing the gun precipitated the attack?

Your thoughts?

November 25, 2009, 12:35 PM	#15
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	Deadly force vs. Fear of Great Bodily Harm Okay, assume this encounter took place in a location you wouldn't normally think about avoiding. I concede the point about taking your wife out from time to time! To take this discussion to a slightly different plane, let me pose the following: As i already said, and others agree, 5 dudes coming at a middle age couple is an obvious disparity of force sufficient to create a reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. So, when does that threat become "legal"? What i mean is, when have the gang satisfied the three requirements so you would be legally justified to draw and shoot? 1.Intent. If they say, "give up your money or die", they've signalled their intent - to rob you, and perhaps kill you. If they threaten you or display a weapon, they satisfy the intent question also. What if they don't? What if it starts with a guy trying to bum a cigarette, then there's 2 guys starting to argue with you, then 5 guys all obviously agitated and shouting crap at you but they haven't threatened you with violence yet or closed the gap between you. Do they have to start beating on you or grab your wife before their intent is clear? What would a reasonable person deduce from the same circumstances? 2. Ability. Yeah, 5 guys could almost certainly beat the crap out of me. I'm not bruce (lee or willis). Even if i could take one, or even 2, down with me, i'm eventually going down and the rest of them would still be standing (and angrier). So yeah, ability here doesn't even require them to display a weapon. If they display a weapon, all bets are off. Then i believe they would satisfy Ability, Intent and Opportunity. 3. Opportunity. When could they actually take you down? A guy with a knife isn't an imminent threat from 60 feet away, but from 60 inches certainly would be. what if they have a couple of baseball bats? Same thing. What about fists? How close do you let them get before you pull? Before you shoot? 10 feet? 20 feet? Just asking. This is the kind of scenario that turns me cold - with my wife or kids in jeopardy and there is no right answer, no immediate "guy in the bedroom holding a knife shoot NOW" recognition of the imminent peril. It might seem like it escalates quickly, but in reality this could take several minutes to go down or build up, as you prefer. Generally speaking, it is considered unlawful to draw if your aren't - at that moment - also justified in shooting, whether you do or do not then shoot. In a case like this, i expect that drawing the gun would immediately cause 1 of 2 things. Either they would vanish, or they would attack. If they vanish, fine. If they attack, you shoot. Might a reasonable person (ie., member of a jury)think your act of drawing the gun precipitated the attack? Your thoughts? __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.