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Old January 6, 2020, 02:04 PM   #14
zukiphile
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Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 3,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
Quote:
A LEO executing a court order isn't holding a hearing. The problem comes in how the hearing resulting in the seizure order is conducted.
I understand but the same thing is happening when a guy is accused, then arrested, isn't it?
No. The LEO is not issuing a judicial order and is not arraigning a defendant. They are substantively different things.

That a person may not want either to happen doesn't make them the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
An arrested person does not lose his rights. He will be detained for arraignment.
He certainly does lose his 'rights' in jail, doesn't he?
No, he doesn't. He isn't free to leave, but he still has his constitutional rights and is going to see a judge very soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
Quote:
That doesn't transform their acts into an equivalent of a judicial process. On the contrary, judicial process is the remedy to those abuses, except in the early phase of an RFL process because it is ex parte.
Being arrested after the LEOs being called isn't a act of a judicial process either. The RFL court process is the remedy for the seizure, isn't it?
The early phase of the RFL structure is the source of the seizure order. That a later phase of the RFL structure provides for reversal of the original error doesn't rob that first stage of its erroneous character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
Why couldn't the RFL mean the people on either side go to court FIRST, each represented with counsel, and then the judge says 'take 'em' or 'don't take 'em'.
Because that would not be a Red Flag preliminary hearing. That's a hearing for a protective order or a competency hearing.

At the risk of looking beyond the specifics of a law, the animating message of RFL proponents is that some things are too important to be impeded by due process. If a 100 men lose their rights in hearings of which they aren't even notified and it saves a single life, that's great.

I don't think that's great. Due process protects against real dangers.

Last edited by zukiphile; January 6, 2020 at 02:25 PM.
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