[BillCA]

Not to worry, Erik. Sometimes this medium is awkward and clumsy when these kinds of discussions break out. It frustrates many of us at times.

So, let's begin with, essentially, the first "questionable" statement.

If I tell you to drop it and you make any move with it, prepare to be shot. I've told you exactly what to do, you choose not to do so at your own peril."

"any move with it"... any.

In short, I must drop a gun and nothing else, regardless of it being in an "unsafe" condition (i.e. a cocked weapon - such as a SA revolver). Or even to extend an arm (not towards the cops!) to drop it away from myself and/or the attacker. Is that what you are advocating?

In the event the PD arrival is something of a surprise (speed, stealth, whatever) and the gun is at waist or chest level, the implication is that raising one's hands instead of dropping the weapon may result in being shot.

You are envisioning again...

Nope. I'm thinking of the admonition that any move whilst holding the gun is an invitation to be shot.

Originally Posted by Erik

Actually, that has been a significant part of the discussion. How'd you miss it?

Non-sequitur here. I don't dispute what one's response to "Stop!" or "Don't move" should be. However, my point was with regards to the command to drop the gun. Should the subject begin an unexpected move, is there a reason you would NOT yell "STOP! DON'T MOVE!" again? Enlightenment is desired. Do you believe it's unnecessary? Or perhaps you think events will happen too quickly to react?

Originally Posted by Erik

Correct. Nobody has said that. It has been necessary to state and restate this fact several times. And again. Deja vu. Wow, I don't think I've ever had to re-restate something in the same post before...

Nor have I had to refer back to the definitive statement so many times. So here we go again.

Originally Posted by Dave A(Post 31)

If I tell you to drop it and you make any move with it, prepare to be shot.

Being someone who takes a literal view of the statement, the way this reads, to me, is if told to drop the gun and the subject makes any other move with the gun, then they should prepare/expect to be shot. This includes raising the hands to a surrender position, making the weapon safe (safety lever, decocker, etc.), first separating the two-hand hold, etc.

Originally Posted by Erik

I agree with your comments on how people behave in high stress situations; of course, I see them as supporting our position, where that gun-pointees should do everything possible to ensure gun-pointers do not perceive them as threats.

So we've reached a consensus about how to behave in simple scenarios with one LEo issuing orders?

Now I am really confused. You agree with some comments I made about how people react in high-stress situations. But after review, I must surmise you agree with my comments about sympathetic firing but not about stress-induced auditory exclusion and/or the confusing hash of multiple officers yelling commands.

You are appently envisioning different time lines than we experience and train for.

And what might those time lines or time-frames be?

Willfully ignoring commands is a threat indicator. You're already at two threat indicators the instant you begin movement. Are you a three strikes you're out kind of guy? If so, you're one away from force.

So if the person moves in any way at all before dropping the gun this constitutes 2-threats ... failure to obey the command immediately and movement? Is that right?

Just for simplicity, in the above, moving any way at all means the arms or upper body only. I'm not talking about someone turning to face officers who are behind.