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Old April 9, 2000, 03:44 PM   #12
Edmund Rowe
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 1998
Location: Warner Robins, GA USA
Posts: 351
For same room distances I think either MP5 or M4 can be used to great effect if the team knows their business. If they have M4s then they'd better have good hearing protection. The stereo muffs wouldn't be a bad idea so you can hear something besides your ears ringing when the element in the back room yells "CLEAR!" Not that 9mm is considered "quiet", just more so than .223.

.223 has much better wound ballistics than 9mm if I read my Martin Fackler right. Also, it's much more difficult for bad guys to wear the body armor necessary to stop .223 compared to 9mm. Difficult but not impossible.

I'm surprised that only mooser mentioned the HK MP-53 (MP-5 size with .223) and nobody the US military experience in Mogadishu (read Blackhawk Down):

The MP-53 is nice, but still has the ergonomics of the MP-5. No hold-open, funny leverage on the bolt handle if you have to clear a malf (to be fair, the M-4 forward assist and cocking handle aren't what I consider ideal for malf clearance, either), selector a bit too far to reach unless you break your firing grip.

The Mogadishu battle seems to show that at least in this case, the indoor same room type battles were more the exception than the rule in this running battle, even though it was in a crowded city. Many firefights seemed (at least to me) to be at "down the street" distances and such. I heard somewhere that some US units switched to .223 more often than not after this battle.

Just my opinion but if you're ready for a battle of that magnitude, then the indoor same room problem is more easily tackled than the other way around. Hence I would choose the M-4.

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