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to answer jearger106's question, I've seen three people shot with .25acps, two were alive and one was dead (i had to stop and reflect a bit). I don't think the particulars matter to some as they have their own views one way or the other. as posted above, it is not the best, but it IS lethal.
shot placement has been the deciding factor in all the shootings ive investigated and the one i was involved in; caliber didn't seem to matter in any of them.
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