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Old March 25, 2019, 11:30 AM   #21
NavyVet1959
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Join Date: April 27, 2014
Location: Texas, ya'll
Posts: 166
The Texas Alcohol Beverage Commission (TX-ABC) requires certain signs on businesses that have various types of licenses for the sale or consumption of alcoholic beverages. For the most part, those signs have not kept up with our changes in concealed carry and other "firearm-ish" laws over the years. I've actually contacted them asking about certain signs and they will admit that the signs are in error with respect to current laws.

We have this sign with is used to tell people with a CHL that they can't go into this establishment because over 51% of their income is from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption:



It doesn't say "firearm", it says "handgun", so we have to look up what the Texas statutes define a "handgun" as. Turns out that a "handgun" is a "firearm" that is designed to be operated by one hand. The key thing is that it must be a "firearm" first and "firearm" was previously defined as not including pre-1899 replicas that do not use centerfire or rimfire ammunition. As such, this sign does not prohibit someone from carrying a cap-and-ball revolver.

It should also be noted that this sign does not prohibit the carrying a shotguns or rifles in this sort of establishment.

And then there is this one:


The Texas statutes do not define what a "weapon" is. They define what a "firearm", but not a "weapon". We have the concept of "deadly weapon", but that is a subjective term that is used in enhanced penalities at the trial and punishment phases. Hell, even a pillow could be considered a deadly weapon if used in a manner to try to kill someone. I see this sign at the entrance to Wal-Mart when I shop there. What are they prohibiting? Are they saying that someone cannot walk into the store with a fixed blade Buck knife? That makes a lot of sense since someone could just walk into the sporting goods area and pick one up there.

Since Texas explicitly define a "firearm" as not including pre-1899 firearms or replicas of pre-1899 firearms if they don't use centerfire rimfire ammunition.

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...ect-46-01.html

So, if you have an original centerfire C96 (Broomhandle Mauser) handgun manufactured in the first couple of years, it would be legal even though it uses a centerfire cartridge, but later ones even if exactly the same would not be legal.



Considering the price and scarcity of those years of C96s, I suspect that they are not really an option that we need to consider. The part where it allows replicas is something that is worth considering though since it allows us to carry in places where our CHL would not normally allow us to carry. A business owner can put up a 30.06 or 30.07 sign and if you enter that business, there can be legal consequences for you. On the other hand, if you are carrying a pre-1899 replica, it is not legally a "firearm" and since the 30.06 and 30.07 signs explicitly apply to those carrying under license of a CHL, the signs to not apply to you. Same way they don't apply to someone who is open carrying a rifle or shotgun. Of course, if the owner of the store sees you carrying and tells you to leave and you don't, you can be charged with trespassing. So, how is this different? Let's go with this scenario...

You go into a store open carrying a pre-1899 replica cap-and-ball revolver. The store has a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. Instead of telling you that they don't want you there and asking for you to leave, they call the police. The police arrive and see you carrying the revolver. If you are carrying a 1899+ firearm and you have a CHL, then you have violated the 30.07 law and are subject to arrest. It might even cause you to lose your CHL. If you are carrying a pre-1899 firearm, you have not violated any laws and the police arriving would be your first indication that the owner of the business was telling you to leave, therefore you have not broken any laws. Now, will the responding police know the difference? That's probably a good question... I'm not naive enough to think that the police are knowledgeable in all the laws that they should be enforcing, especially since many of them are more than willing to enforce laws that are blatantly unconstitutional and just claim that they are "just following orders" or "just don't their jobs"... Those are the same excuses that were used as Nuremberg -- they didn't fly then and they shouldn't fly now.

In my conversations with the TX-ABC, I learned that some of their prohibitions with respect to the "firearms" or "weapons" are aimed at the ABC license holder, not the person with the "firearm" or "weapon" since the penalty is that the ABC license holder could be fined or his license revoked. I guess it's too difficult for them to make that distinction on a small sign and let people know who and what is really trying to be controlled. If they required businesses to post every applicable regulation that might affect their customers on the front of their building in a large enough font to read and in enough detail to understand, the entire building would be covered and no one would read it because it would just look like noise to them.
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Last edited by NavyVet1959; March 25, 2019 at 04:30 PM.
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