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leadcounsel · September 16, 2005, 03:20 PM

Glenn,
First, if I'm outnumbered by assailants that's a situation I leave or draw on because it's an imminent lethal situation.

If you draw OC to address a non-lethal situation, what prevents your opponent from drawing his gun and, standing over your chalk outline giving his police statement claiming he legally thought that you were drawing/holding/aiming a lethal weapon at him. In a blur a can of OC can easily be confused with a lethal weapon. And there sure are going to be alot of witnesses that say that you drew first and aimed a palm-sized object at him.... Sure raises the level to reasonable doubt against homicide and offers a legit excuse for self defense... Here is the law in COLORADO.

CRS 18-1-704 (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;

Hence, there isn't a reasonable jury in my state that will convict when you drew a weapon, even a non-lethal weapon, first and the shooter 'reasonably thought' it was a lethal weapon and you meant him imminent great bodily injury and shot first in self defense.

To that end, someone draws any weapon on me, I'm not waiting to see what that weapon is and they ain't gonna have time to second guess their weapon choice, which "sured looked like a bersa thunder in that instant that I drew and protected myself from the imminent lethal force."

IMO, as a lawyer with a real understanding of self defense laws IN COLORADO, drawing ANYTHING from your pocket and aiming it in a hostile situation is grounds for lethal self defense immediatley, no questions asked. As soon as you preceive a lethal threat it's time to defend yourself with a lethal threat. The assailant goes for a pocket in a hasty move, I'm drawing and aiming immediately. If it looks like a weapon, I'm not waiting to find out what it is. For instance, last summer a cop was cleared of a shooting under the following facts. The cops were answering an emergency call from a home. The cop was entering a bedroom window under a warrentless search (or maybe a search warrant; irrelevant) and saw a man with a silver object in his hand in the bedroom. The cop shot and killed the man in the mans' own bedroom. The object? A silver can of soda (or beer, don't recall).

Don't believe me. Try this with a police officer sometime. In a tense situation, I double dare you to make a sudden move for a coat pocket and aim something harmless small and black/shiny at a cop and see how quickly you're staring at the business end of a pistol.

I think your civilian self defense techniques are not only bunk, but dangerous and can put you in more threat than you contemplate.

September 16, 2005, 03:20 PM	#45
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Glenn, First, if I'm outnumbered by assailants that's a situation I leave or draw on because it's an imminent lethal situation. If you draw OC to address a non-lethal situation, what prevents your opponent from drawing his gun and, standing over your chalk outline giving his police statement claiming he legally thought that you were drawing/holding/aiming a lethal weapon at him. In a blur a can of OC can easily be confused with a lethal weapon. And there sure are going to be alot of witnesses that say that you drew first and aimed a palm-sized object at him.... Sure raises the level to reasonable doubt against homicide and offers a legit excuse for self defense... Here is the law in COLORADO. CRS 18-1-704 (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and: (a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; Hence, there isn't a reasonable jury in my state that will convict when you drew a weapon, even a non-lethal weapon, first and the shooter 'reasonably thought' it was a lethal weapon and you meant him imminent great bodily injury and shot first in self defense. To that end, someone draws any weapon on me, I'm not waiting to see what that weapon is and they ain't gonna have time to second guess their weapon choice, which "sured looked like a bersa thunder in that instant that I drew and protected myself from the imminent lethal force." IMO, as a lawyer with a real understanding of self defense laws IN COLORADO, drawing ANYTHING from your pocket and aiming it in a hostile situation is grounds for lethal self defense immediatley, no questions asked. As soon as you preceive a lethal threat it's time to defend yourself with a lethal threat. The assailant goes for a pocket in a hasty move, I'm drawing and aiming immediately. If it looks like a weapon, I'm not waiting to find out what it is. For instance, last summer a cop was cleared of a shooting under the following facts. The cops were answering an emergency call from a home. The cop was entering a bedroom window under a warrentless search (or maybe a search warrant; irrelevant) and saw a man with a silver object in his hand in the bedroom. The cop shot and killed the man in the mans' own bedroom. The object? A silver can of soda (or beer, don't recall). Don't believe me. Try this with a police officer sometime. In a tense situation, I double dare you to make a sudden move for a coat pocket and aim something harmless small and black/shiny at a cop and see how quickly you're staring at the business end of a pistol. I think your civilian self defense techniques are not only bunk, but dangerous and can put you in more threat than you contemplate.