The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Black Rifles Accurate Enough for Hunting and Self-Defense?

Wyosmith · December 16, 2012, 11:56 AM

I’d agree with Wogpotter if I were to have only 1 "black rifle" (which I would paint medium gray) it use on "everything" in North America. I'd get a good FN-FAL. [2 to2.3 MOA is about what most will do with good ammo] However if I were to be a bit more realistic about the mission statement I'd probably look at the area and targets you will have to shoot at. If a man can afford to go all over the continent and shoot "everything", he can afford more than one rifle. If such a man can go "anywhere" he can afford ammo.

So with that said, I would say that if ammo is to be loaded yourself and you have the money to get enough brass, powder, primers and bullets to last for many years, the best choice for MOST shooters in the USA (as of now at least) is the AR-15 in 6.8 SPC. {good rifles in this caliber will shoot sub MOA with ammo they like] It's got ballistics in the same league as the 257 Roberts factory load (of the 1950s) It's an excellent round for deer, antelope and of course, enemies and it is smaller and lighter than the 308 round. The reason I say "MOST" shooters would be best armed with this rifle is that 88% of Americans live in cities. Shooting elk and moose and bears is not a real concern to them in MOST cases.
The "down side" to the AR in 6.8 is that the rifles are a bit pricy and the ammo is quite pricy if you don’t load it yourself.

If the cost is an issue than perhaps the “best” rifle for most shooters might just be a good AK_47. [ A good AK with an American made barrel will shoot 3-4 MOA and some do a bit better] The ammo is cheap, accuracy is good enough for hunting or fighting out to 200 meters and out to 300 or even 350 in the hands of a good shot. The rifles are about as reliable as they can be. A quad rail forend makes them easy to scope or mount an optical dot sight on and is not very expensive.

One of my all time favorite military rifles for use in the field (I do not live in or near a city) is still the WW2 M-1 Garand. [Rack grade M-1s shoot about 3 MOA and very good ones can shoot close to 1 MOA but can’t be field stripped too many times if they are to maintain that degree of accuracy. 2.5 MOA is a realistic expectation for a good M1 with a good barrel]
It carries and feels like a rifle, fires the 30-06 round and with hand loads and correct powders, shoots bullets from 150 to 220 grains. It is not as “good’ as the FAL, the G-3, the M-14 or the SCAR Heavy as a combat rifle, but I am sure that doesn’t matter as much as many would think. If you win a fight with a lone enemy or a small group of enemies you just got what ever he had in most cases. If you loose a fight, --------well then your problems on this earth are over. You will either have untold problems in the next world, or none at all, depending on what you decided to do with your faith in this life.

So please do yourself the service of realistically defining the mission statement and establishing a realistic budget before you go out and buy a rifle. Remember that over a period of about 10 years, the rifle can be the cheapest part. The ammo is what is going to cost the most if you are an avid shooter.

Anyway, That's my 2 cents worth-----------

December 16, 2012, 11:56 AM	#6
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I’d agree with Wogpotter if I were to have only 1 "black rifle" (which I would paint medium gray) it use on "everything" in North America. I'd get a good FN-FAL. [2 to2.3 MOA is about what most will do with good ammo] However if I were to be a bit more realistic about the mission statement I'd probably look at the area and targets you will have to shoot at. If a man can afford to go all over the continent and shoot "everything", he can afford more than one rifle. If such a man can go "anywhere" he can afford ammo. So with that said, I would say that if ammo is to be loaded yourself and you have the money to get enough brass, powder, primers and bullets to last for many years, the best choice for MOST shooters in the USA (as of now at least) is the AR-15 in 6.8 SPC. {good rifles in this caliber will shoot sub MOA with ammo they like] It's got ballistics in the same league as the 257 Roberts factory load (of the 1950s) It's an excellent round for deer, antelope and of course, enemies and it is smaller and lighter than the 308 round. The reason I say "MOST" shooters would be best armed with this rifle is that 88% of Americans live in cities. Shooting elk and moose and bears is not a real concern to them in MOST cases. The "down side" to the AR in 6.8 is that the rifles are a bit pricy and the ammo is quite pricy if you don’t load it yourself. If the cost is an issue than perhaps the “best” rifle for most shooters might just be a good AK_47. [ A good AK with an American made barrel will shoot 3-4 MOA and some do a bit better] The ammo is cheap, accuracy is good enough for hunting or fighting out to 200 meters and out to 300 or even 350 in the hands of a good shot. The rifles are about as reliable as they can be. A quad rail forend makes them easy to scope or mount an optical dot sight on and is not very expensive. One of my all time favorite military rifles for use in the field (I do not live in or near a city) is still the WW2 M-1 Garand. [Rack grade M-1s shoot about 3 MOA and very good ones can shoot close to 1 MOA but can’t be field stripped too many times if they are to maintain that degree of accuracy. 2.5 MOA is a realistic expectation for a good M1 with a good barrel] It carries and feels like a rifle, fires the 30-06 round and with hand loads and correct powders, shoots bullets from 150 to 220 grains. It is not as “good’ as the FAL, the G-3, the M-14 or the SCAR Heavy as a combat rifle, but I am sure that doesn’t matter as much as many would think. If you win a fight with a lone enemy or a small group of enemies you just got what ever he had in most cases. If you loose a fight, --------well then your problems on this earth are over. You will either have untold problems in the next world, or none at all, depending on what you decided to do with your faith in this life. So please do yourself the service of realistically defining the mission statement and establishing a realistic budget before you go out and buy a rifle. Remember that over a period of about 10 years, the rifle can be the cheapest part. The ammo is what is going to cost the most if you are an avid shooter. Anyway, That's my 2 cents worth-----------