The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post

LASur5r · September 21, 2000, 07:49 PM

Hi Fubsy and Krept, (and Skorzeny when you sign on),
I know you didn't ask me either, but FWIW, some thirty odd years ago I was in traditional Shotokan and Okinawa-te,later in Goju, and various styles of Kempo. Most of it was during the period that there was only white,brown, and later black belts. At some time in the 60's I tried Tang Soo Do and Hapkido (Korean style). In that time, katas (forms) were the most important part of the art...in the beginning. They were considered important because it taught you proper breathing,balance, rhythm,and spirit because you fought imaginary attackers...using traditional attacks of the past. Most of the sparring was one step, then karate randori came along, we sparred scoring one point where you always stopped if you scored a point. It was always fun and games because you were supposed to be poised and in control so you pulled your punch (no contact)...in fact, you were proud that you could pull your punch just before contact.
This was the "art" that you learned...you ween't supposed to fight because you were karateka. You were supposed to be aloof, you were taught to use "deadly weapons" so you restrained yourself.
Good for self-defense? I guess if you were good in your dojo and the attacker kind of attacked you in the practice way or the attacker didn't know too much about street fighting...you usually won by the "mystique" or the reputation. My experiences and this is with knowing a lot of teachers who had put in a lot of years...real street fighting with someone that really wanted to clean your clock?
Many was the time that I saw hard core karateka...3rd and 4th degree black or higher go down to a boxer in the Navy or a good all around street fighter.
I can tell you of many,many street fights that I know where karateka went to the hospital with not a mark or at best light bruising from the karate "deadly" hits.
I also know of fights won by a kii-yaii (Yell) or a punch or kick or combination done properly.
I won't say that if properly taught...karate could work for real, but in the past, the instructors only would say that you didn't practice enough and you didn't work hard enough.

Lucky for me, I had learned hard core jiujitsu before I started to learn karate...had to resort ot that in fights. The fights that I won using karate...I kept it simple and totally focused..like breaking boards. (But that's stories for some other time.)

As an aside, I know an instructor who learned Wing Chun Gung-Fu from Master Yip Man about the same time as Bruce Lee...he eventually went to Japan to attend college there and he said that the way that they taught the stuff in Japan was different then the way the stuff being taught here in the U.S. was being taught. He said as good as he is in Wing Chun, he barely could hold his own against the university karateka.
He said over there, they were very fast and their focus of power was awesome.
So the short answer is it depends...
The problem that I see, is if you spent decades in it however many hours a day, you too could use the art in some self-defense.
The problem is in those days we thought that either it was the school, the style, the teacher, or us who weren't good enough to use the stuff we learned in real self-defense.
When Bruce Lee tried to put things together for him, he broke the barriers in the minds of many of us. We learned from him...if you picked a few good techniques and practiced them properly to learn...proper distance, rhythm, proper use of power, then often that is enough.
Sorry, that this post is long, but let me give you guys an example...then I'll stop.
Take an ordinary piece of 8 1/2" by 11" piece of writing paper. Hold the paper in your weak hand extending your arm full length in front of you, now snap punch it until you can put a neat hole about the size of a half a dollar through the paper with one punch.
Once you can make that hole than bring your hand to within one inch from touching the paper, then do the one snapping punch and make that same type of hole.
After you could do that you got one heck of a penetrating punch that can be launched from one inch away from your opponent's body. Bruce dropped a whole bunch of guys (physically knocked them to the deck)and knocked out a whole bunch of black belts (me included) while we were trying to fight him one at a time.
I taught a bunch of 40 year old business professionals that punch. Within one to 3 months several got to use that punch and a trapping combination in self-defense...worked. In one case, it was against two attackers...Each case, the attackers had extensive jail time and street experience.
A little tweak, a little different focus...and presto chango...
Hope what you're looking for...good luck.

September 21, 2000, 07:49 PM	#3
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Hi Fubsy and Krept, (and Skorzeny when you sign on), I know you didn't ask me either, but FWIW, some thirty odd years ago I was in traditional Shotokan and Okinawa-te,later in Goju, and various styles of Kempo. Most of it was during the period that there was only white,brown, and later black belts. At some time in the 60's I tried Tang Soo Do and Hapkido (Korean style). In that time, katas (forms) were the most important part of the art...in the beginning. They were considered important because it taught you proper breathing,balance, rhythm,and spirit because you fought imaginary attackers...using traditional attacks of the past. Most of the sparring was one step, then karate randori came along, we sparred scoring one point where you always stopped if you scored a point. It was always fun and games because you were supposed to be poised and in control so you pulled your punch (no contact)...in fact, you were proud that you could pull your punch just before contact. This was the "art" that you learned...you ween't supposed to fight because you were karateka. You were supposed to be aloof, you were taught to use "deadly weapons" so you restrained yourself. Good for self-defense? I guess if you were good in your dojo and the attacker kind of attacked you in the practice way or the attacker didn't know too much about street fighting...you usually won by the "mystique" or the reputation. My experiences and this is with knowing a lot of teachers who had put in a lot of years...real street fighting with someone that really wanted to clean your clock? Many was the time that I saw hard core karateka...3rd and 4th degree black or higher go down to a boxer in the Navy or a good all around street fighter. I can tell you of many,many street fights that I know where karateka went to the hospital with not a mark or at best light bruising from the karate "deadly" hits. I also know of fights won by a kii-yaii (Yell) or a punch or kick or combination done properly. I won't say that if properly taught...karate could work for real, but in the past, the instructors only would say that you didn't practice enough and you didn't work hard enough. Lucky for me, I had learned hard core jiujitsu before I started to learn karate...had to resort ot that in fights. The fights that I won using karate...I kept it simple and totally focused..like breaking boards. (But that's stories for some other time.) As an aside, I know an instructor who learned Wing Chun Gung-Fu from Master Yip Man about the same time as Bruce Lee...he eventually went to Japan to attend college there and he said that the way that they taught the stuff in Japan was different then the way the stuff being taught here in the U.S. was being taught. He said as good as he is in Wing Chun, he barely could hold his own against the university karateka. He said over there, they were very fast and their focus of power was awesome. So the short answer is it depends... The problem that I see, is if you spent decades in it however many hours a day, you too could use the art in some self-defense. The problem is in those days we thought that either it was the school, the style, the teacher, or us who weren't good enough to use the stuff we learned in real self-defense. When Bruce Lee tried to put things together for him, he broke the barriers in the minds of many of us. We learned from him...if you picked a few good techniques and practiced them properly to learn...proper distance, rhythm, proper use of power, then often that is enough. Sorry, that this post is long, but let me give you guys an example...then I'll stop. Take an ordinary piece of 8 1/2" by 11" piece of writing paper. Hold the paper in your weak hand extending your arm full length in front of you, now snap punch it until you can put a neat hole about the size of a half a dollar through the paper with one punch. Once you can make that hole than bring your hand to within one inch from touching the paper, then do the one snapping punch and make that same type of hole. After you could do that you got one heck of a penetrating punch that can be launched from one inch away from your opponent's body. Bruce dropped a whole bunch of guys (physically knocked them to the deck)and knocked out a whole bunch of black belts (me included) while we were trying to fight him one at a time. I taught a bunch of 40 year old business professionals that punch. Within one to 3 months several got to use that punch and a trapping combination in self-defense...worked. In one case, it was against two attackers...Each case, the attackers had extensive jail time and street experience. A little tweak, a little different focus...and presto chango... Hope what you're looking for...good luck.