The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Muzzleloading semi-auto/full auto concepts.

Bill Akins · August 20, 2011, 11:51 PM

I can't remember if I've mentioned my idea here before of using the Webley Fosbery Zig zag cylinder (only straightened out) concept regarding my idea of a semi-auto or even full auto muzzleloader. If I already have gone into that detail previously, forgive me for being redundant, but if not, here it is.

Study these pics I've collected regarding harmonica guns....

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/564193113IzsjJo

Most especially study this harmonica rifle built for Sam Houston....

and also study this harmonica rifle at this link....

http://underhammers.blogspot.com/200...derhammer.html

In studying these harmonica guns, I've come to several conclusions. The rectangular harmonica block holding either cartridges or black powder loads would inject bits of shaved lead and or burnt powder into your flesh that was immediately below the barrel to harmonica block gap. But....if one were to make the harmonica block where it inserted the end of the cartridge case into the chamber which would make a tight seal when the case expanded, (like the Nagant revolver) this would not happen. Also, if one wanted to make a primitive ignition cap and ball black powder version harmonica block, to preclude what is normally known as barrel to cylinder gap lead and powder "spitting", they could make ends on each harmonica block hole that would go into the chamber area much like a Russian Nagant revolver so that it sealed better and precluded "spitting" lead and powder at the gap.

Another idea I thought about was this design could be applied to make a semi auto or even fully automatic weapon that was not a firearm under the NFA due to it using a non cartridge primitive ignition system/black powder muzzleloader, which under the NFA is not only not a machine gun or even a semi auto, but as a primitive ignition system is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. Here's how.....

Most of us are familiar with the Webley Fosbery semi automatic revolver and its zig zag pattern cylinder turning design. Here's a pic of that....

and a link to how it worked.....
http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html

Basically the Webley Fosbery semi auto revolver's zig zag cylinder turned halfway to the next round when the cylinder and upper receiver recoiled after firing, (engaging the zig zag pattern in a stationary lug), then when the spring pushed it back forward, it turned the cylinder the other half of the way which indexed it completely to the next round to be fired. Yes, a semi auto revolver.

Now imagine a black powder, muzzleloading cap and ball primitive ignition system harmonica block that had zig zag patterns in it that would also engage a stationary lug. But instead of the harmonica block turning like the Webley Fosbery's cylinder did, instead this harmonica block recoils rearward and compresses a spring and then the spring pushes the harmonica block back forward again all while a stationary lug engages the zig zag pattern in the harmonica block which causes the harmonica block to index to the next chamber on the harmonica block. Kind of like just straightening out the Webley Fosbery cylinder into a straight line instead of a cylinder but still utilizing those zig zag cuts with a stationary lug that engages them. Like in this pic of zig zag pattern cylinders laid out flat.....

The above pic of the straightened out zig zag cylinders married to the harmonica gun is what gave me my idea. This could be a semi auto or fully auto black powder gun. By using pyrodex pellets it would not gum up nor make smoke.

It could be a legal, non required to be registered, cap and ball, primitive ignition system machine gun, that would not be classified as such or even classified as a firearm under the NFA.

The hammer that fired the percussion caps on the harmonica block could have a small cup shaped area on the hammer that would totally cover the percussion cap nipple. The nipple would have a larger than normal hole which would be under the percussion cap. When the round fired, more force than normal would blow the percussion cap off the nipple. In addition to the recoiling of the harmonica block, the extra force applied against the hammer due to the larger nipple hole, would also help the recoiling harmonica block to cock the hammer for you. The spent percussion cap would be deflected away from the hammer by an incline & cutout built into the hammer "cup" which would expel the spent percussion cap much like some black powder recoil plates do already upon cocking after firing. Look at the recoil plate of your black powder revolver in the area immediately behind the cap nipples. Notice the channel made to direct the percussion cap away and outside of the gun after firing?

Now to make this black powder, primitive ignition system, harmonica gun which is a NON firearm, not a semi auto and not a full auto (under the NFA) not "spit" lead or powder into your hand underneath any harmonica block to barrel breech gap, you could do this. Make the forward end of each muzzleloading harmonica block chamber have a short protrusion on the end of each cylinder in the block that actually went up inside the barrel's breech end, much like the Russian Nagant revolver I mentioned earlier. Your spring pushing the harmonica block forward would keep the harmonica block short protrusion pushed tightly against a lip inside the breech end of the barrel, thus sealing the harmonica's block and the barrel from lead and powder "spitting". You would have a partially gas operated hammer but a simple blowback harmonica block "bolt".

Yes you could also make the hammer cock just by the harmonica block recoiling, and not increase the size of the hole in your percussion cap nipples. That would work too. But I was just thinking of a way to get rid of any percussion caps that might stick to the nipples on the harmonica block so it would be quicker to reload. If you omitted the spent caps being blown off and omitted the larger nipple hole and omitted the hammer cap "cup", then you would just have a blowback gun without any gas operation. With the low pressure of black powder guns, a blowback design would be no problem.

To my knowledge no one has ever utilized the Browning black powder harmonica gun, married to a harmonica block that reciprocated back and forth using the Webley Fosbery zig zag cuts to index it to the next cylinder hole in the harmonica block along with using an increased diameter percussion cap nipple holes and a hammer percussion cap/gas cup to cock the hammer and thus using all these make a semi auto or even full auto black powder, primitive ignition, non firearm, non required to be registered, machine gun that is not legally a firearm and thus not required to be registered.

But it could be done and with a harmonica block that held say 50 to 100 black powder chambers, and utilizing pyrodex pellets to preclude gumming up and smoke, and also the pyrodex pellets would greatly decrease time reloading the chambers of the harmonica block, I see no reason why this could not be done.

I picture it as a tripod mounted gun that would sort of resemble a tray fed Hotchkiss a little.

Some might ask WHY? I say why not? It would be fun and a rapid fire gun for range plinking that was not even required to be classified under the NFA as semi auto or full auto, it is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. If it is not classified as a firearm, it cannot be a semi auto firearm nor a machine gun firearm. As a muzzleloader it is exempted from the NFA.

However, state law can be more restrictive than Federal law. So best to check them to see what they say about a muzzleloading "machinegun" before attempting to build one in your state..

I've thought about making one like I described for a long time. Just for the fun of doing it and making it work. I believe the theory of this is possible to be done. I know exactly how it needs to be designed and have a lathe and mill and some other tools, but would love to work with someone who has better grade machine tooling to make these.

Wouldn't this make a neat range toy? Thoughts?

.

August 20, 2011, 11:51 PM	#1
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	Muzzleloading semi-auto/full auto concepts. I can't remember if I've mentioned my idea here before of using the Webley Fosbery Zig zag cylinder (only straightened out) concept regarding my idea of a semi-auto or even full auto muzzleloader. If I already have gone into that detail previously, forgive me for being redundant, but if not, here it is. Study these pics I've collected regarding harmonica guns.... http://good-times.webshots.com/album/564193113IzsjJo Most especially study this harmonica rifle built for Sam Houston.... and also study this harmonica rifle at this link.... http://underhammers.blogspot.com/200...derhammer.html In studying these harmonica guns, I've come to several conclusions. The rectangular harmonica block holding either cartridges or black powder loads would inject bits of shaved lead and or burnt powder into your flesh that was immediately below the barrel to harmonica block gap. But....if one were to make the harmonica block where it inserted the end of the cartridge case into the chamber which would make a tight seal when the case expanded, (like the Nagant revolver) this would not happen. Also, if one wanted to make a primitive ignition cap and ball black powder version harmonica block, to preclude what is normally known as barrel to cylinder gap lead and powder "spitting", they could make ends on each harmonica block hole that would go into the chamber area much like a Russian Nagant revolver so that it sealed better and precluded "spitting" lead and powder at the gap. Another idea I thought about was this design could be applied to make a semi auto or even fully automatic weapon that was not a firearm under the NFA due to it using a non cartridge primitive ignition system/black powder muzzleloader, which under the NFA is not only not a machine gun or even a semi auto, but as a primitive ignition system is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. Here's how..... Most of us are familiar with the Webley Fosbery semi automatic revolver and its zig zag pattern cylinder turning design. Here's a pic of that.... and a link to how it worked..... http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html Basically the Webley Fosbery semi auto revolver's zig zag cylinder turned halfway to the next round when the cylinder and upper receiver recoiled after firing, (engaging the zig zag pattern in a stationary lug), then when the spring pushed it back forward, it turned the cylinder the other half of the way which indexed it completely to the next round to be fired. Yes, a semi auto revolver. Now imagine a black powder, muzzleloading cap and ball primitive ignition system harmonica block that had zig zag patterns in it that would also engage a stationary lug. But instead of the harmonica block turning like the Webley Fosbery's cylinder did, instead this harmonica block recoils rearward and compresses a spring and then the spring pushes the harmonica block back forward again all while a stationary lug engages the zig zag pattern in the harmonica block which causes the harmonica block to index to the next chamber on the harmonica block. Kind of like just straightening out the Webley Fosbery cylinder into a straight line instead of a cylinder but still utilizing those zig zag cuts with a stationary lug that engages them. Like in this pic of zig zag pattern cylinders laid out flat..... The above pic of the straightened out zig zag cylinders married to the harmonica gun is what gave me my idea. This could be a semi auto or fully auto black powder gun. By using pyrodex pellets it would not gum up nor make smoke. It could be a legal, non required to be registered, cap and ball, primitive ignition system machine gun, that would not be classified as such or even classified as a firearm under the NFA. The hammer that fired the percussion caps on the harmonica block could have a small cup shaped area on the hammer that would totally cover the percussion cap nipple. The nipple would have a larger than normal hole which would be under the percussion cap. When the round fired, more force than normal would blow the percussion cap off the nipple. In addition to the recoiling of the harmonica block, the extra force applied against the hammer due to the larger nipple hole, would also help the recoiling harmonica block to cock the hammer for you. The spent percussion cap would be deflected away from the hammer by an incline & cutout built into the hammer "cup" which would expel the spent percussion cap much like some black powder recoil plates do already upon cocking after firing. Look at the recoil plate of your black powder revolver in the area immediately behind the cap nipples. Notice the channel made to direct the percussion cap away and outside of the gun after firing? Now to make this black powder, primitive ignition system, harmonica gun which is a NON firearm, not a semi auto and not a full auto (under the NFA) not "spit" lead or powder into your hand underneath any harmonica block to barrel breech gap, you could do this. Make the forward end of each muzzleloading harmonica block chamber have a short protrusion on the end of each cylinder in the block that actually went up inside the barrel's breech end, much like the Russian Nagant revolver I mentioned earlier. Your spring pushing the harmonica block forward would keep the harmonica block short protrusion pushed tightly against a lip inside the breech end of the barrel, thus sealing the harmonica's block and the barrel from lead and powder "spitting". You would have a partially gas operated hammer but a simple blowback harmonica block "bolt". Yes you could also make the hammer cock just by the harmonica block recoiling, and not increase the size of the hole in your percussion cap nipples. That would work too. But I was just thinking of a way to get rid of any percussion caps that might stick to the nipples on the harmonica block so it would be quicker to reload. If you omitted the spent caps being blown off and omitted the larger nipple hole and omitted the hammer cap "cup", then you would just have a blowback gun without any gas operation. With the low pressure of black powder guns, a blowback design would be no problem. To my knowledge no one has ever utilized the Browning black powder harmonica gun, married to a harmonica block that reciprocated back and forth using the Webley Fosbery zig zag cuts to index it to the next cylinder hole in the harmonica block along with using an increased diameter percussion cap nipple holes and a hammer percussion cap/gas cup to cock the hammer and thus using all these make a semi auto or even full auto black powder, primitive ignition, non firearm, non required to be registered, machine gun that is not legally a firearm and thus not required to be registered. But it could be done and with a harmonica block that held say 50 to 100 black powder chambers, and utilizing pyrodex pellets to preclude gumming up and smoke, and also the pyrodex pellets would greatly decrease time reloading the chambers of the harmonica block, I see no reason why this could not be done. I picture it as a tripod mounted gun that would sort of resemble a tray fed Hotchkiss a little. Some might ask WHY? I say why not? It would be fun and a rapid fire gun for range plinking that was not even required to be classified under the NFA as semi auto or full auto, it is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. If it is not classified as a firearm, it cannot be a semi auto firearm nor a machine gun firearm. As a muzzleloader it is exempted from the NFA. However, state law can be more restrictive than Federal law. So best to check them to see what they say about a muzzleloading "machinegun" before attempting to build one in your state.. I've thought about making one like I described for a long time. Just for the fun of doing it and making it work. I believe the theory of this is possible to be done. I know exactly how it needs to be designed and have a lathe and mill and some other tools, but would love to work with someone who has better grade machine tooling to make these. Wouldn't this make a neat range toy? Thoughts? . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target". Last edited by Bill Akins; August 21, 2011 at 01:11 AM.