Thread: 9mm revolvers ?
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Old April 19, 2019, 10:59 PM   #229
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Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Someone made an excellent point about lighter 357 110 and 125 gr being the standard self defense weights. This is accurate and shouldn't go unnoticed when people start talking about 357 can go heavier than 9mm. Okay. Now go look at the 125gr 357 tests. Those do perform well. Also note, the go to light weight round is the Remington 125gr SJHP. It is known to eat forcing cones--yep even on your improved 686 and impossible to destroy GP100.
110 and 125 gr are hardly the only popular bullet weights for self defense in .357 Magnum. Federal's 130 gr Hydra Shok, Speer's 135 gr Short Barrel Gold Dot, Cor-Bon's 140 gr JHP, Winchester's 145 gr Silvertip, and various 158 gr JHP loadings from every major manufacturer are all popular choices for defensive use.

Also, I'd like to see some documentation that the Remington 125 gr SJHP "eats forcing cones" in S&W 686's and Ruger GP100's. In fact, the only guns I'm aware of that routinely had problems with this loading are olders S&W K-Frames (Models 13, 19, 65, and 66) due to the flat spot in the 6 o'clock position in their forcing cones necessary to clear the yoke. Current productions S&W K-Frames use two-piece barrels with no flat spot and are thus not subject to this failing.

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Also, some of these BB and Underwood hot loads being thrown around as evidence of common 357 superiority are "Ruger only" loads. Someone correct me on this, but I believe that means for the frame of the GP100/Redhawk. It doesn't include SP101. It certainly isn't J frame material.
Incorrect. In their product descriptions of all their heavy .357 Magnum ammunition Buffalo bore states the following in bright blue letters:

"This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames."

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Perfect timing. Energy doesn't matter. According to Federal who makes 357 too.
Sorry, but too many of the "explanations" given by the so-called "experts" in the Lucky Gunner video were over-simplified, taken out of context, or just plain wrong. For example, Mr. Laack not only ascribes to the "magic number" of 2200 fps myth (if this were true a .17 HMR would be a superior fight-stopper to a .45-70) but also apparently needs a refresher on Newtonian physics when he states that the extra energy of a .44 Magnum is "obliterated" or "washed away" by tissue elasticity.

Also, if energy doesn't matter, then why does Federal make their ultra-premium-don't-need-high-velocity HST's in both standard pressure and +P versions in both 9mm and .45 ACP? Afterall, the standard pressure versions do quite well in gelatin tests, so why would anybody want the extra blast and recoil of a +P version?

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Don't read the comments, watch the youtube from Federal.

They know what they are talking about as the largest US ammunition manufacturer...
Why then do they offer not only +P but +P+ loadings in their law enforcement lines?

Note that none of the above are part of the regular production ammo lines that Federal or Speer markets to us uneducated masses but only offered in their LEO-only lines.

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Federal owns/makes: Gold Dot, Hydra/Hydro shok, HST, Speer Bonded (Underwood and Buffalo Bore loads these old bullets). Vista owns Speer, Federal, Federal Premium...basically all the great bullets except XTP and Barnes.
What exactly are these "old Speer bonded bullets" you keep saying that Buffalo Bore and Underwood are loading? Speer Gold Dots are bonded bullets and the bullets that were loaded in the Underwood .38 Special +P 125 gr Bonded JHP ammo I have looks exactly like Speer Gold Dot .357" 125 gr JHP component bullets and the bullets loaded in Speer Factory .38 Special +P 125 gr Gold Dot ammo.

In fact, in searching the Speer .357" component bullets available from both Graf & Sons and Midway USA, I could not find any "old bonded bullets" only Gold Dot, Deepcurl (which is actually loaded in the Speer Factory 158 gr Gold Dot loading), TMJ, and their generic JHP (which looks nothing like what is loaded in my Underwood ammo).

Look, I'm not arguing that, with premium bullets, a 9mm can't perform very well. However, a cartridge which can use bullets not constrained by what the majority of semi-auto's will reliably feed that can push comparable weight bullets 200-300 fps faster (not counting boutique ammo like Underwood or Buffalo Bore) is going to be able to do things that a 9mm simply cannot do.

For example, my chosen .357 Magnum self-defense ammo is Remington 158 gr SJHP. This loading does typically fragment but still delivers consistent expansion and more than adequate penetration. I view fragmentation as potentially beneficial so long as penetration is adequate. This is because fragmentation can work synergistically with temporary cavitation to increase tissue damage. This phenomenon was noted by Dr. Martin Fackler:

Originally written by Martin Fackler
Projectile fragmentation can greatly augment temporary cavity effects by providing points of weakness on which the stretch is focused rather than being absorbed easily by the tissue mass

Finally, have you ever considered that perhaps there aren't so many modern, premium bullets available for .357 Magnum because the old ones work quite well as they are? One of the often-overlooked advantages of the .357 Magnum is that it doesn't need premium bullets to perform well. While your HST's or Gold Dots may be impressive, that doesn't do you much good if they're unavailable as they often were during the Great Gun and Ammo Panics of 2009 and 2013. If I'm limited to whatever generic JHP I can happen to find at Walmart in the midst of a big panic buying spell, I'm going to trust the old SJHP .357 Magnum loadings a lot more than I would WWB, American Eagle, or UMC generic 9mm JHP's.
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