The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - No-Knock Warrant/Wrong Address

longrifles, Inc · March 10, 2009, 04:47 AM

I won't even attempt to touch the legal part of this whole conversation as I know I don't have the education or tongue for litigation. I do offer a related topic for consideration though:

When instructing students in practical/defensive/tactical shooting I use a stress technique when they grossly screw up or fumble a fundamental weapons manipulation drill. It's very scientific and it’s called "yelling at the top of my lungs". I get right in their face, switch on, and go full throttle Drill Instructor on them. In 99.99999999999999% of cases the student locks up and freezes. Military guys are the worse and I am convinced its a learned behavior from all the yelling, spitting, and cussing they've endured during their careers. I refer to it as auditory induced shooter's rigormortis. I'm not doing this to be a dick, an ass, or an overzealous/bearing teacher who has an ego on three round burst. (I'm actually a very even conversational toned person) It's an exercise for them that attempts to simulate a fraction of the extreme stress, pressure, and anguish they will be faced with during the time line when things go to hell and they elect to use deadly force or engage an enemy combatant. The men and women I work with are a mix of Civilian Law Enforcement, Federal Agents, and Military. The men I work with and train on a daily basis here in Baghdad are all from the following: Navy SEAL, Army Ranger, Army Delta, Army SF, Federal Air Marshals, and SWAT officers. We have a few Marines from the 03XX MOS fields and a couple Air Force PJ's/Command and Control guys also.

My point in all this is if you really think you have the presence of mind to go from a dead sleep to 100% switched on in the fraction of a second it takes for a mob of people to invade your home in a manner that has been carefully rehearsed over and over and over again your ego is suffering from a serious yeast infection and you’re a prime example of spectators arrogance. I'll bet a 401K plan that you fail every time. Especially when the group of Alpha males and nail eating killers that I just described can't power through a little fat guy yelling in their face when they have a stovepipe or brain fart a magazine exchange.

Cops aren't killed by people asleep in the dead of night when they enter a home/structure to serve a no knock warrant. It's one reason why, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe they typically choose to serve these kinds of warrants around 3 to 4 in the morning. 99.9% of people are dead asleep during these hours.
I can only think of one possible way to even train someone for this kind of thing and it is both very impractical and potentially very unsafe. It'd involve a bed, a shoot house, and a very powerful sound system set up with all the bells, bangs, flashes, and voices of a typical SWAT team serving a warrant. That'd be your alarm clock.

The exercise would involve being woke up from a dead sleep, you then reach for your weapon, assess, and then begin to engage multiple targets before they have an opportunity to engage you. Now just how realistic does that sound? Now toss in an innocent, maybe your wife got up to pee just as they entered and she's standing in the doorway when they come charging into the bedroom.

I've introduced the mental side of this now let’s look at the physical: We got people on this forum bitching about a little gas getting squirted in their eyes when they shoot their AR's and M-4's. What is your performance going to be like when your eyes are groggy and glued shut from the sand man? A person's blood pressure lowers during sleep, (ever wonder why you’re so cold in the morning? Your core temperature is lowest during sleep) what's going to happen when you jump up? You’re liable to pass out. I know for a fact I'd fail it. It'd take a solid six months to a year of this kind of training to be anything close to effective. Who really wants to volunteer to be woken up multiple times a night by explosions and loud voices for the next 180 days? By the end of it you'll be as flaky as a sexually abused house cat.

I've been formally educated, trained, schooled in marksmanship and in various practical/defensive/tactical shooting techniques/doctrines by military, Federal LE, and diplomatic agencies. I've instructed and coached more people formally than I can ever hope to remember. I've been doing it in one fashion or another since 1991. My purpose isn't to dazzle you with my brilliance, just to illustrate that I've been around this stuff for awhile and I've got a pretty good handle on it.

If you really want to mitigate this kind of threat I suggest buying a very heavy steel door for your house and putting big bars on the windows.

March 10, 2009, 04:47 AM	#20
longrifles, Inc Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2009 Location: Sturgis, South Dakota Posts: 152	I won't even attempt to touch the legal part of this whole conversation as I know I don't have the education or tongue for litigation. I do offer a related topic for consideration though: When instructing students in practical/defensive/tactical shooting I use a stress technique when they grossly screw up or fumble a fundamental weapons manipulation drill. It's very scientific and it’s called "yelling at the top of my lungs". I get right in their face, switch on, and go full throttle Drill Instructor on them. In 99.99999999999999% of cases the student locks up and freezes. Military guys are the worse and I am convinced its a learned behavior from all the yelling, spitting, and cussing they've endured during their careers. I refer to it as auditory induced shooter's rigormortis. I'm not doing this to be a dick, an ass, or an overzealous/bearing teacher who has an ego on three round burst. (I'm actually a very even conversational toned person) It's an exercise for them that attempts to simulate a fraction of the extreme stress, pressure, and anguish they will be faced with during the time line when things go to hell and they elect to use deadly force or engage an enemy combatant. The men and women I work with are a mix of Civilian Law Enforcement, Federal Agents, and Military. The men I work with and train on a daily basis here in Baghdad are all from the following: Navy SEAL, Army Ranger, Army Delta, Army SF, Federal Air Marshals, and SWAT officers. We have a few Marines from the 03XX MOS fields and a couple Air Force PJ's/Command and Control guys also. My point in all this is if you really think you have the presence of mind to go from a dead sleep to 100% switched on in the fraction of a second it takes for a mob of people to invade your home in a manner that has been carefully rehearsed over and over and over again your ego is suffering from a serious yeast infection and you’re a prime example of spectators arrogance. I'll bet a 401K plan that you fail every time. Especially when the group of Alpha males and nail eating killers that I just described can't power through a little fat guy yelling in their face when they have a stovepipe or brain fart a magazine exchange. Cops aren't killed by people asleep in the dead of night when they enter a home/structure to serve a no knock warrant. It's one reason why, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe they typically choose to serve these kinds of warrants around 3 to 4 in the morning. 99.9% of people are dead asleep during these hours. I can only think of one possible way to even train someone for this kind of thing and it is both very impractical and potentially very unsafe. It'd involve a bed, a shoot house, and a very powerful sound system set up with all the bells, bangs, flashes, and voices of a typical SWAT team serving a warrant. That'd be your alarm clock. The exercise would involve being woke up from a dead sleep, you then reach for your weapon, assess, and then begin to engage multiple targets before they have an opportunity to engage you. Now just how realistic does that sound? Now toss in an innocent, maybe your wife got up to pee just as they entered and she's standing in the doorway when they come charging into the bedroom. I've introduced the mental side of this now let’s look at the physical: We got people on this forum bitching about a little gas getting squirted in their eyes when they shoot their AR's and M-4's. What is your performance going to be like when your eyes are groggy and glued shut from the sand man? A person's blood pressure lowers during sleep, (ever wonder why you’re so cold in the morning? Your core temperature is lowest during sleep) what's going to happen when you jump up? You’re liable to pass out. I know for a fact I'd fail it. It'd take a solid six months to a year of this kind of training to be anything close to effective. Who really wants to volunteer to be woken up multiple times a night by explosions and loud voices for the next 180 days? By the end of it you'll be as flaky as a sexually abused house cat. I've been formally educated, trained, schooled in marksmanship and in various practical/defensive/tactical shooting techniques/doctrines by military, Federal LE, and diplomatic agencies. I've instructed and coached more people formally than I can ever hope to remember. I've been doing it in one fashion or another since 1991. My purpose isn't to dazzle you with my brilliance, just to illustrate that I've been around this stuff for awhile and I've got a pretty good handle on it. If you really want to mitigate this kind of threat I suggest buying a very heavy steel door for your house and putting big bars on the windows. Last edited by longrifles, Inc; March 10, 2009 at 05:51 AM.