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RC20 · May 27, 2025, 02:43 PM

I have to seriously doubt offical vs what got claimed

No disagreement that German pilots had high counts for the reasons you stated. Fighting Russians would be high numbers.

But, why would the Germans focus valuable intel assets to count claims? Not the kind of info you get over the airwaves. let alone the decode efforts.

There has been a lot of recent analysis of records. Most kept meticulous written records only accesses post WWII and then far more lately.

I may be wrong but I had read someplace that twin and 4 engine aircraft got two and four claim counts. I could be wrong.

Unfortunately most of my background is in book read in the past and I don't remember titles.

This is a pretty neutral summation. In order to be accurate, you would need the records from both sides in a specific engagement on the same day. Almost impossible in many aerial battles in Europe.

From mid-year 1943 through 1944, the Wehrmachtbericht (communiques from the head of the armed forces) often overstated Allied bomber losses by a factor of up to two; these claims existed only in the communiques and were not used in victory scoring. Defenders of the German fighter pilots maintain that overclaims were eliminated during the confirmation process, but the microfilms show that this was not always the case. Stringent review of German archives show that 90 percent of the claims submitted to the RLM were "confirmed", or found to be "in order for confirmation", up to the time the system broke down in 1945.[9]"

Wingman would lie, an interesting term I have seen is power balance and a higher scoring pilot would have that.

The only ones I believe are the overall records, not individual ones. We sent out 48 planes and 45 came back type of report.

On a more abstract and objective basis, only if the pilot is killed or captured is it really relevant. If recovered by your side and back into combat, new aircraft were there.

Its hard to shoot a guy in a parachute but if he is going to be recovered, is it any different than a sniper shot at a guy just sitting there?

May 27, 2025, 02:43 PM	#466
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,330	I have to seriously doubt offical vs what got claimed No disagreement that German pilots had high counts for the reasons you stated. Fighting Russians would be high numbers. But, why would the Germans focus valuable intel assets to count claims? Not the kind of info you get over the airwaves. let alone the decode efforts. There has been a lot of recent analysis of records. Most kept meticulous written records only accesses post WWII and then far more lately. I may be wrong but I had read someplace that twin and 4 engine aircraft got two and four claim counts. I could be wrong. Unfortunately most of my background is in book read in the past and I don't remember titles. This is a pretty neutral summation. In order to be accurate, you would need the records from both sides in a specific engagement on the same day. Almost impossible in many aerial battles in Europe. From mid-year 1943 through 1944, the Wehrmachtbericht (communiques from the head of the armed forces) often overstated Allied bomber losses by a factor of up to two; these claims existed only in the communiques and were not used in victory scoring. Defenders of the German fighter pilots maintain that overclaims were eliminated during the confirmation process, but the microfilms show that this was not always the case. Stringent review of German archives show that 90 percent of the claims submitted to the RLM were "confirmed", or found to be "in order for confirmation", up to the time the system broke down in 1945.[9]" Wingman would lie, an interesting term I have seen is power balance and a higher scoring pilot would have that. The only ones I believe are the overall records, not individual ones. We sent out 48 planes and 45 came back type of report. On a more abstract and objective basis, only if the pilot is killed or captured is it really relevant. If recovered by your side and back into combat, new aircraft were there. Its hard to shoot a guy in a parachute but if he is going to be recovered, is it any different than a sniper shot at a guy just sitting there? __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not Last edited by RC20; May 27, 2025 at 03:07 PM.