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Old January 29, 2013, 06:04 PM   #60
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,685
Manta, I think you are being a bit overly sensitive here.

The point has been made repeatedly in the media that firearm homicides are lower in the UK and many other European countries, than they are in the US.
I'll chime in here.
Is Manta being sensitive? Yes, probably.
Is it understandable? Also, yes, but I'll come to that in a second.

Re the media.
If the media says it, do you (collectively) have to respond? Why?
Numerous times, several members, myself included, have pointed out what a red herring comparisons with other countries are.
Whatever the crime rates are in the US, it is largely due to the situation in the US. The same with the situatiion in the UK. There is no causal link between the two.

Most people realise that if they stop and think about it, rather than taking the bait from the media.
Why the pro-gun community even gives these comparisons credence is beyond me. It seems to be fighting in a reactive, not proactive manner, so the media can lead the agenda

If we stop and think about it we also realise that guns won't reduce the incidence of crime, just the outcomes: Will a person be a victim or someone that can retaliate or not.
So again, why do people bother looking to other continents to justify choices for US society. It makes no sense.
It's like if the UK based traffic policy on US accident rates.... Pointless.

This leads on the first part of the quote above and this:

No one is saying that "Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans".
No, they aren't. Actually at times, they say things that are far worse.
And that, rather than this particular thread is what elicits frustration at times, certainly for me. This may also be the reason Manta appears sensitive.

Often, and more so recently, there have been a steady stream of UK/Rest of World vs US threads.
Some members, no doubt frustrated with the situation on their home turf, turn their ire toward the UK and other "foreign" places, probably because the same media keep saying what a good example such places are for gun policy.

I've seen posts where members have called the UK a cesspool of crime, posts where people have intimated that British soldiers don't know their bayonet from their mess-tin, that Brits are all cowards, that the French are worthless, that Europe is one homogenous communist hole... you get the point.

That gets a bit old, and many members, possibly because the majority of their peers are American, forget that this is still an international forum, and that there are representatives of quite a few nations.
And we are all bound by a love of shooting.

I may not agree with how everything is done in the US but, when I've chosen to express that view, I've certainly tried to express those views respectfully.
If I didn't, there'd be a furore.

And yet when I've seen the posts I paraphrased above, amongst others, the sad thing is that seldom have I seen other members, US members, challenging such posts saying that they are out of order and uncalled for.
I have no doubt that if I'd said something of the same ilk about the US marines, I'd be waiting a matter of minutes before a poster refuted it.
So, to my mind, such posts about foreign climes are therefore being tacitly supported by the wider audience.

So without wishing to speak on Manta's behalf, if some non-US members seem sensitive it is because the unsolicited animosity and disrespect by a small minority of TFL members, but largely unchallenged by the majority, eventually starts to wear a bit thin.

It may make some of us think "why am I bothering to lend my moral support, if all I get is a screen-full for my troubles?".
After all, what we'd really like (and I feel confident that this view is shared) is for fellow firearms enthusiasts in the US to enjoy their pursuit unhindered and more importantly for they and their families as well as those of the rest of the nation to be safe and happy, be they pro or anti.

Sorry for the verbose response and it was not personally directed at "btmj", it just seemed to invite my point of view and I felt that was something I needed to say.
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
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