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Old November 14, 2012, 01:59 AM   #101
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Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Pax, there are some valid issues with your post. Hopefully you don't deem this reply as an affront, but your post can lead some to be put on the defensive.

First off of the three 'experts' you referred to, at least two of them had posts that were a little 'pushy' themselves(and they started that way first). As for someone who fell off the roof at work, the bones probably occured because it was a fall and an accident(by an expert at the job during their profession...sorry, had to throw that in). I'll take it that maybe this is who you were referring to in the below quote since that would be more accurate than if you were referring to something else:

Speaking of loud voices, there sure seems to be a lot of emotionalism in the thread. I'll grant it's an emotional topic, but it's hardly helpful to be nasty to each other over it.
It is questionable at best for you to decide who are the experts in this thread being we are all on the internet and there could easily be others. You can of course decide who you want to listen to, and I enjoyed reading your post and have others on TFL. I have read some of your material too...reflecting on when your offspring were children and you had a trunk to store the weapons as one of many many examples...

We live in the age of the instant expert, where everyone's opinion is as good as anyone else's, and the guy who shouts the loudest usually "wins" an all-too-often adversarial online conversation. But I tend to listen hardest for the voices of people who have in some way been there. I might not like what they have to say, but darn sure I'll listen to it. To my ear, a loud voice cannot compete with a clear voice, even if it's a whisper.
the last two thirds of the above post lead me to my next point. first off, who has been there? you must mean the person with experience with these animals. That is a valid point. Booksmart is not the same thing as been there. I tend to believe mleake as someone who has relevant experiences to qualify since you mentioned it. I also feel the first two points of mine are intertwined and I am definitely defensive if you categorized me with OTHERS as you stated that are yelling, chest-pounding, or demanding to be correct.

One of my steadfast points since the beginning of this thread is that many people freeze during emergencies, have to think(always takes longer), etc. I have Experience and first-hand knowledge of this(AKA - even the most stoic, trained individuals FREEZE during an emeregency..that is why it is URGENT that one had training, an individual reverts to their trainigns in such cases). So far in this 90something post thread I know of only three people conclusively who would act in a calm, life-saving manner: myself, MLeake, and David White. I also know multiple persons who would not act. None of this makes anyone wrong or a bad person, and it also only determines what my personal opinion is.

Honestly, if its me I'm kickin some serious butt and some animals are crossinmg over to the other side. I am not going to shoot someone else, I'm not going to shoot in the base of the skull(to use your wording...I am guessing this was a way to show humanism towards the innocent animal), I'm not gonna break a bone(sprain, fracture is possible), I don't care if this animal is endangered, I don't care if one of them is pregnant...all I care about is saving that child and doing it immediately, INSTINCTIVELY without a second's thought,calmly, rationally without taking any extra chances, and so-on. I have found throughout the course of my life this child would have had a much better chance to survive if someone like myself, David White, and/or MLeake had been on the scene(modesty out the my earlier posts I didn't refer to myself). Even better, 2 or three of 'are kind' happen to be there together. People always see tragic events in newspapers and articles, but I think everyone here can serve as witness to reading heart-warming, incredible stories of how emergency situations ended well due to the acts of heroism and quick thinking of individual(s). Usually under discussion it is followed by something of this nature: "that person was extremely lucky" or "that person was extremely lucky BLANK was on the scene by coincidence; that could've ended much worse". this person can be an off-duty nurse, doctor, fireman, policeman, good samaritan with 'the gene', etc. When I was single digit years of age I watched a man dive into the potomac river(on television live) to save a woman who was freezing to death after a plane crash. He later was deemed a hero and met the president on live television. It is people like this who act...this person actually had time to think about it, as he just couldn't sit by and watch any longer at this woman who was very distraught, in shock, freezing, and unable to gather the strength to hold onto the rescue buoy.

Incidentally, for those who are saying that bystanders couldn't tell for sure that the child was actually dead, um, no. We have not seen any pictures of this child's injuries (nor do we want to!!), but .... dogs often go for the throat. If the child's head was completely severed, as seems not unlikely, or if the dogs literally tore the child's body in two, even a non medical person might take that as A Clue. Even if it was less clear than that, I would not want to take away a survivor's coping mechanism. The people who were there need to believe that nothing they could have done would have saved the child. The factual or non-factual nature of their belief hardly matters to us at this point, but it could be a sanity saver for them. Let it be.

part of my issue is I am not quite sure who you are referring to in your 'painted brush' post. I know I made one comment about DNS' point, but that was more due to the fact that in the context of what he was saying - it made sense. You have to be careful to rush to judgements that seem pretty much concrete(pretty much isn't concrete). I don't recall him or I ever saying or defending the notion that this child did not die quickly. I know I didn't...I should add that DNS should probably be added to the "will act" list. If these people need to cope that way then fine...and in most cases they probably couldn't have done anything. That being said it is a cop-out as well in certain situations and they KNOW if they could've done something. There are people out there that saw the tape, but that is a separate issue I am not going to comment on(as in the tape has nothing to do with whether one acted or not).
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
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